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« Bar Exams Launched Seven Years After | Main | The Post Front Page-Friday, Oct 12, 2007. »

Friday, 12 October 2007

Comments

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Ma Mary

If ADN's Camerounese civil war happens, are you Southern Cameroonian Federalists and unitarists ready to take sides to fight and die for that foreign country, the way Africans fought and died for Europe in WW1 and WW2?

Kumbaboy

There will be no civil war as long as the Prime Minister is an Anglophone. Cameroonians are too lazy to fight one. Mr. Biya has drastically curtailed his frenchification agenda in response to Anglophone opposition at home and abroad, notably in the United States, where he was on one occasion forced to leave his hotel through the back door.

However, Dr Njoya is raising a serious issue although the prince has hardly shown any activism in the past to defend what he believes in. It has taken him over 2 months to make a statement in support of the frontline embassies (UK, USA and Netherlands). Even Paul Biya fired the arrogant foreign minister Atangana Mebara over a month ago, presumably over the latter’s public repudiation of key embassies. That is the problem with Dr. Ndam Njoya – too laid back.

7512wilson

Kumbaboy
I can't disagree with you more.
Dr Ndam Njoya has spoken the truth. The issue of an Anglophone Prime minister is a none issue. Anglophones don't care who is prime minister. Cameroon at moment is like a ticking time bomb and the signs and markings of a civil war are already visible. Cameroon is like a volcano waiting to erupt and i am afraid it might be too late to prevent the inevitable. Cameroon needs a complete overhaul and a total cleanup. The country is drench with poverty, frustration, hopelessness, corruption, police brutality, election riggings and the list just continues. I foresee a political genocide where the prime victims will be D.O's, S.D.O's and members of the CPDM party. I am not a war advocate but just a realist. I am hoping for a miracle.
Good bless Cameroon

Kumbaboy

7523wilson,

Show us the armed parties for a civil conflict. Show us the cleavages and strategic alliances that would fuel such a disasterous conflict.

The fundamental causes of violence in Abong Mbang, Mokolo Market in Yaounde, Foumban and the University of Buea, cited by the Prince, are not directly related. Why did Dr Njoya, a notable academic, politician and ex-Minister of National Education not speak out when the present minister Jacques Fame Ndongo cheated students at UB?

Just because the political and economic climate is bad is no evidence of an impending civil war. There is only one armed party in the country - the government.

Ted

A civil war in Foumban...maybe but not over the entire territory of Cameroon. Cameroonians have fought their maximum to effect a change in Cameroon. You can't just win a match by mere participation but participating and knowing how to score a goal and scoring it. Cameroon is ripe for insecurity but not a civil war. A civil war is an expression too big cameroon's political vocabulary and when cameroon's politicians start sounding this kind of tune, it's obviously noise before defeat. They are already out of ideas and strategies.

7512wilson

When there is a will, there is a way. A few weeks ago there was some exchange of gunfire between gendarmes in Yaounde and some armed rubbers. It took about a battalion of gendarmes to finally bring down the situation. A raid was conducted and scores of high tech fire arms and weapons were recovered and seized from the rubbers. It is an undeniable fact that firearms are being smuggled in Cameroon from neighboring Nigeria and Chad on a constant and alarming rate. Kumbaboy, you seem to be underestimating and undermining the seriousness of the situation. Please open your eyes.

simplice

"There will be no civil war as long as the Prime Minister is an Anglophone" by KumbaBoy

Mr KumbayBoy, could you reflect on that statement again?.Or if I may inquire; does the presence of an anglophone "Prime Minister" materially or substantially solve the problems of insecurity,corruption, election rigging and co?. A civil war cannot be apeaced by some "sterile representation" of formalistic order. This "taxation without consequential representation" or "union with sterile participation" could be the raison d'etre of an impending civil war.

simplice

Prof Ted,
Though I find your comment appealing, I still insist you apologise for qualifying elements of this forum as uneducated. When you indicted us with such a derogatory designation, I asked for your definition of "education", you gave none.
Now let us see how educated you were in your last comment. This is what you just wrote:
"Cameroonians have fought their maximum to effect a change in Cameroon" by Ted.
And now, when you talk of maximun, what are your criteria of appreciation?.And what type of fight do you insinuate in the assertion?. Do you mean Cameroonians are no longer able to bring about any institutional and socio-economic reforms?.
Perhaps I do not yet understand your defintion of "maximun".

Watesih

Kumbaboy,
Your History lessons have failed you so soon.The French revolution started as a result of the price of bread,and a bad harvest.Not far from us in Myanmar,there`s an uprising as a result of the price of fuel.You certainly live in England,and can`t teach you anything about the Boston Tea Party.Hon.Ndam Njoya has cited many examples of the explosive situation we have been living,and what is more important in his declaration is that all of these events will only need a spark,and the whole country will be engulfed.Your last statement is completely void of substance.You are just saying the contrary;that it is because of a deteriorating political,and economic situation that war ,and other nefarious circumstances become inevitable.The situation in Cote D`Ivoire has been explosive because of political backstabbing.
If you question a civil war in Cameroon,
then you will also question the temerity with which people in AbongMbang,a Cpdm bastion will attack government edifices just because of power outages.If Paul Biya happened to find himself in one of the Police stations that was attacked by the irate civilians,do you think they would sit down for tea with him? Of course not! They would have fed fat the ancient grudge they bear him.

simplice

Watesih, you're a genius

Kumbaboy

Watesih,

A civil war requires major splits in both political and military circles with the belligerent parties strategically aligned with foreign interests. A group of armed bandits at Mokolo market do not constitute the precursor to a civil war. Armed bandits have been marauding Cameroonian towns for a long time particularly in the North - a spill over from Chad. Bamenda has become a target in recent years.

After the FCFA devaluation, the government cut salaries by over 70%, the SDF and opposition groups supported a ghost town policy leading to the 1992 Presidential Elections and Paul Biya responded by carving the country into military zones with selective emergency orders. Still, there was no civil war even after the President seemingly stole the 1992 election from Fru Ndi. Ndam Njoya forgot to list the shooting death of 6 patriots in Bamenda on the launching of the SDF, without which Dr. Ndam Njoya will still a member of the CPDM (or dare I say CNU).

In fact, it can be argued that Paul Biya’s prolonged stay in power is due to the endemic paralysis of his contemporaries including Dr Ndam Njoya. They allowed their own age mate to shaft the country so badly and for so long. In 2007, he musters the courage to say Cameroon is at the brink of a civil war.

On the other hand, Paul Biya has been forced to understand that Cameroon is a bicultural country and that the 1961 act of union imposes certain mandates on whoever occupies State House. Both president and prime minister cannot be francophones without energizing Anglophone nationalism. The Anglophones are the only viable block that has the leadership at home and overseas, legitimate reasons and strategic attractions to trigger a civil war in which the Francophones and Cameroon Federation will lose. Reason – the Francophone have destroyed the “Federation of Equals” through chicanery underscored by presidential decrees. In a broken marriage, the parties go their separate ways vis-à-vis Senegambia, Eritrea, East Timor, etc. To keep the minimum of peace, Anglophones have a legitimate claim on the Prime Minister position in the country.

KB

simplice

Mr Kumbaboy, I understand only too well your exposé, but then, are you talking about a Prime Minister who simply has a formalistic agenda or one vested without some autonomy of power to pursue unilateral decisions. In sum and substance, I'm advocating the post of the Prime Minister is marred with "representation without participation". In more simplistic terms, a civil can be avoided if the "Prime minister" is politically unsterile, not if the PM is romote-controlled.

7512wilson

The office of the Prime Minister under the present regime is a lame duck and a waste of time in my opinion. I am even more surprise that some people will think that by making the post of prime minister exclusively for Anglophones will prevent a civil war or an uprising. That sounds ridiculous to me.
However, the point i am trying to make here is that the power block must shift to the West in the event of Biya leaving office. When I say the West i am referring to, North West, South West and Western Provinces of Cameroon. The Northerners and Southerners have had their time. Any attempt by Biya to retain power or hand power to a South Bulu will be unacceptable to the Northerners and Westerners and a civil war will become inevitable. Power going back to the Northerners will be unthinkable since Biya and other Southerners could face revenge for what they did to the Northerners during the 84 Coup. Especially when some of the culprits of the 84 coup are still languishing in Kondengue.
It is therefor more of a safeguard to a possible civil war than a necessity for an Anglophone or at least a Westerner to become next President After Biya. Any attempts by Biya to retain power or hand over to a Bulu Southerner will lead to possible Genocide.
That might sound too extreme but there is a good possibility.
Just my take..

simplice

Wilson, you perfectly understand the matter

Watesih

Kumbaboy,
I must tell you that what i respect in an argument is coherence.Disjointed facts always give me the impression that my interlocutor doesn`t have a grasp of what he is talking about. First people will accuse you of treating what Hon. Ndam Njoya said with levity,or deliberately distorting facts.The Honorable gentleman did not say anywhere that armed bandits were killing people at the Mokolo market.How comes that you say a group pf armed bandits at Mokolo market does not constitute a precursor to civil war? He was instead blaming Biya`s forces of disorder for killing innocent civilians at Mokolo just as they did at Mokolo,Buea and you name them.The civilians you now call armed bandits can bring about civil war,and this is amply demonstrated for us by William Shakespeare in one of his works "Romeo,and Juliet" where a fight between few members of two renowned families ,the Capulets ,and the Montagues degenerates into a conflagration between the two.The King is forced to come into the streets,to call for restrain,and his words remain some of the best Shakespeare wrote: " Rebellious subjects ,enemies of the peace.When next you disturb our streets,your lives shall pay the forfeit of the peace".
I`m surprised you are enumerating all the ills we have gone through in Cameroon,and showing the build up of grievances as a weakness to act.NO! Japan dragged most of the Asian powers like South Korea,China in the mud before ,before and during the second World War,but it only sufficed for them to bomb Pearl Harbor a single day to meet their Waterloo.Madame Foning has rigged all elections during her 10 year reign in Douala ,but she could not believe her ears when Dipanda Mouelle cut into her speech,and asked her ;'Who are you Madame?'.
Finally,a civil war doesn`t speak French or English.During the ghost towns operations
,anything could happen as a result of the activities of both Francophones,and Anglophones.The language of a civil war is derived from civil strife.You seem to be giving the idea that there`s no civil war in cameroon ,because Anglophones have a legitimate claim of the prime Minister`s post.One day when the PM will be a francophone,and the President of the National Assembly an Anglophone,how legitimate will your claim continue to be?
There`s nothing like the Anglophones having legitimate reasons,and strategic attractions to trigger a civil war.If a civil war is of a peculiar nature ,because it solely has to do with Anglophones,it will be a war of secession,because they will be fighting solely for their own good.This is where you will want to call in the services of the SCNC,won`t you?

nationalist

There will be no war because we love our Head of State His Excellency President Paul Biya, shown by the massive support for the CPDM during the recent twin elections.

Only terrorists like the SCNC will try to threaten our national unity. Do you know that America, Britain and France have classified the SCNC as a terrorist association, just like they did with Al Qaeda, Hamas, Fatah, Iran etc. That is why these organisations congratulate President Biya for fighting terrorism in Cameroon by crushing the SCNC. We shall smoke them out of their holes.

Only dubious countries like Nigeria will continue to play cat and mouse with the SCNC because they are eyeing the rich resources in that part of Cameroon.

Long Live CPDM, Long Live Cameroon

nationalist

Where are the Ngembuses, Ma Marys, M Njes, USAfricas etc who decided to mount a war against freedom of speech on this forum? Where is their SCIS to smoke people out? We are still waiting for them. Please don't take too long.

They have failed woefully. 1st October went by peacefully in Cameroon and nobody batted an eyelid in name of SCNC. Their calls for public manifestations were rejected 100% by the wise Cameroon people who know the worth of their Head of State.

The real celebration coming up is November 6th, the 25th annivesary of the Head of State to the supreme magistracy. You are all going to see how Cameroonian will come out en masse to feast and commune with their leader.

SCNC, should hang their heads in shame. SDF should leave fighting for power and join the Head of State to bring about the programme for greater achievements.

Thank you all. Join your nearest YCPDM, PRESBY and Chantal Biya Youth branches and militate.

simplice

Na so you came, massa, na so you go hot?. You di remain call pipo na terrorist?. However we need diversity of opinion and you're welcome to our fold.
However Mr Nationalist, tell us how come you know about SCIS. I can only infer from your "nationalistic comments" that you're just a modified version of "Reverend" or "Fake Paa Ngembus" who was shamelessly unmasked and is now licking his wounds.
Please Mr Nationalistic, be diplomatic, respect the opinions of others and we shall respect yours.

simplice

"Do you know that America, Britain and France have classified the SCNC as a terrorist association, just like they did with Al Qaeda, Hamas, Fatah, Iran etc" by Nationalist.

Please tell us the source of these facts.

Ted

Vito or Simplice asking for an apology?

Kumbaboy

Watesih: Your reference to Shakespeare derates your piece. Shakespeare's plays are all fiction. Dr Njoya was referring to incidents that actually happened.

Nationalist: No one should underestimate the SCNC for a minute – it is a legitimate organization with international institutional recognition and increasing representation overseas. Foreigners who have listened to the SCNC case against Biya’s La Republique du Cameroun wonder why a war has not yet broken out. I believe history will nevertheless credit Mr. Paul Biya for going full circle to correct the consequences of his past errors.

Biya’s major errors include decreeing La Republique to secede from the Cameroon Federation and his deceitful policy of “national integration” which practically means frenchification by presidential decrees. Decrees are no substitute for an informed debate and formalized procedures for working the civil service so that there is transparency and predictability.

The SCNC effectively halted frenchification at its premier Summit in Buea and left Mr. Biya in panic mode. He struggled to join the British Commonwealth primarily to save the country from an inevitable split then. This is a man who as PM of a bilingual country never bothered to study English used by a portion of his country and major development partners to Cameroon, decreed name change to Southern Cameroons’ economic capital Victoria to Limbe as part of his covert strategy to de-anglicize Southern Cameroons and permitted a version of his many Constitutions to state that French is the “authentic” language of Cameroon. These are some of the documented ill-works of the Biya Presidency. History will censure him for the legacy.

Nevertheless, the Cameroon Federation does not have to destroy itself because of one man’s mistakes. Who is perfect? Civil war is not something to talk about lightly. It will send us years back. The Biya wounds in the national psyche can be fixed and will be fixed. No one and no country is perfect.

Ma Mary

"Nationalist" is providing us with light entertainment. That is a pretty good impression of seriously out of fashion CNU sycophantic talk. Can I hire you to perform for a Southern Cameroons convention? Please do it some more.

simplice

Mr Ted, talking about "Vito" is a "Super-Satement". I meant apologise.
However from your last, statement, I can infer the message has been well understood(you aren't quick to grow on your nerves).What I came to discover on this forum is that; once someone is attributed a "derogatory designation", he starts distorting facts every know and then, simply to disprove his qualifier(in subsiquent debates).This results to reactionary intriques and "Buyam-Sellam" rhetorics which scales down the profile of this forum:on which much of us depend for socio-political enlightenment. I perfectly understand you're one of those great minds who could contribute in making this forum;one of substance.

Watesih

Kumbaboy,
I have noted your 'let sleeping dogs lie attitude' in many debates now,and i must say it sounds eerie to the ears.The ability to always run to conclusions with statements like ;let his critics go to hell,who is perfect?,no one and no country is perfect,gives the impression that we can let others go away with their crimes because we shouldn`t expect much from them.
Finally,i want to remind you that art is life.Most revolutions have started on the streets ,not in palaces.karl Marx was not a fool when he said revolution would come from the masses.We have seen this time and again.

Kumbaboy

Watesih,

Don’t get me wrong. I am one of those who believe law breakers be pursued to a logical conclusion and without exception.

You make good points from time to time. The trouble with some of your analyses is that they are either one-dimensional or trans-dimensional. Life like mathematics is multi-dimensional. Such dimensions include civil, political, criminal, technological, economic and so on. You can't use civil or criminal statutes to prosecute someone for political crimes.

You wrote “Karl Marx was not a fool when he said revolution would come from the masses”. It depends on what he meant by the “masses”. Marxism failed anyway. Even the great French Revolution was masterminded by a disgruntled political elite in Paris who wrote essays that forged an alliance between the bourgeoisie, aggrieved peasants, and urban wage-earners. The so-called masses need frontline leaders to revolt with results. Many would argue Dr Ndam Njoya is no frontline leader.

Akoson

"Nationalist", "ya mammi ya!"

Do terrorists go to court? Do terrorists win cases in court? Are terrorists sympathised by the United Nations? Are terrorists granted asylum?

Watesih and Kumbaboy, constructive arguments there. But let me just say that denying the possibility of a civil war or an ethnic conflagration in Cameroon or any other country that resembles the socio-political and economic of Cameroon, is akin to denying that Biya's a dictator and a blood drinker!

Cameroon is at the brink of a civil strife. A country characterised by white-collar criminality - ubiquituos corruption, wanton human rights abuses, the Grand North's cry of neglect, Southern Cameroons clamour for an independent state, extreme poverty, bad governance, lack of credible structures to organise free, fair and transparent elections, regard of other citizens as second-class. See how in Yaounde, La Republique, Bamilekes are mocked at and subjugated. This may not be in high places...what those in high places have forced the innocent man on the streets to know.

What do you expect for reaction when a young girl, with somuch hate in her voice shouts and yells at someone from the Bami region as, "UN BAMILEKE!". Hate everywhere! Cameroon is 'united' by a very weak bond. As weak as the thread of a spider's web.

What is delaying the Cameroon ticking-time bomb is lack of canalised efforts to galvanise the bitter grievances of the people.

Remember Kumbaboy that you may chain a man but you'll never chain his mind, you may enslave a people but you'll never conquer their spirit, you may continue to hold a people in bondage by force but sooner or later their anger and frustration becomes so great that force alone cannot contain them. Then the edifice cracks, the mortar crumbles.

The Son

Tekum Mbeng

Dr. Ndam Njoya was a very successful minister of national education under President Ahidjo. Many French-speaking Camerounians remember “le BAC de Ndam Njoya” in which he made high school students east of the Mungo to take the GCE A/L and students west of the Mungo to take BAC questions. The results were a disaster for French-speaking students highlighting basic weaknesses in the francophone system of education in Cameroon.

It was Dr Njoya who famously established a merit-based system for scholarships and training. He was dismissed after a failed attempt to reform university admissions to give priority to younger students.

However, Dr Njoya’s inability to forge meaningful alliances with colleagues, including John Fru Ndi leaves him open to charges of elitism, self-centeredness and covert collusion with the CPDM.

As remarked by Kumbaboy, the inability of Paul Biya’s age mates to unite and effectively challenge the president’s policies has made an autocrat out of a seminarian.

UnitedStatesOfAfrica

I have noticed that this forum has a lot of idealists like Kumbaboy. People who always try to find an invariant formula to explain everything.
There is no fixed recipe for civil war. The least amount of animosity can spark overwhelming and unconstrained flames. Never underestimate the outcome of disgruntled masses. Just like Kumbaboy, the vampire in Etoudi underestimates the Cameroonian masses. The only thing a docile population needs to spring into action is a charismatic leader who usually emerges from nowhere.
The rise of Steve Biko was never predicted and he changed the face of the Black consciousness movement.
The same thing with Nkrumah. He was British Africa's pet project and educated negro but ironically, he turned against them. Nobody predicted the revolutionary force he would possess. He rose from nowhere and with the formation of the CPP, Nkrumah changed the face of colonial resistance against the British.
Rather than waiting for a formula, we should all join hands and see how we can avert this impending doom. Believe it or not, we can burn that bloodthirsty vampire in Etoudi without WAR.

UNITED WE STAND
UNITED WE FALL
AFRICA MUST UNITE

Kumbaboy

US of Africa,

Do not let your ideological opposition to KB blind you from seeing reality. There is no magic wand to cure all problems. KB believes in diverse, logical and progressive thinking to find the answers.


Ma Mary

The pillars of Camerounese population control, first planted in the Ahidjo-Foccart-Fochive years still hold. They still remain effective in preventing civil war-for now. They were originally instituted to destroy the popular UPC uprising. They are:

State Terror> including mass murder, genocide and torture. These are softened somewhat, but the potential is still there. It is quite telling that the genocidaires from Rwanda found a willing refuge in Yaounde.

State intimidation> That is the purpose of sending tens of thousands of soldiers armed for battle into the towns of villages of the Southern Cameroons every October 1. Without intimidation, the demonstrations would be massive. Just remember to pay agents of intimidation better than teachers, nurses and doctors

Alcohol> Medicating people to stupor with massive amounts of strong beer is state policy. Drunk people do not revolt.

With these three in place.............no need to worry.

Ted

Words are very easy to be spoken but transforming those words into actions can take a hell out of a person. Its very easy for Ndam Njoya or any other to declare civil war utterances and by so doing, he has singled out himself from that club that could have effected it and none of you here will do it, not even a soul anywhere in Cameroon. Cameroon opposition politicians gamble with Biya in politics as if they are playing the game with a school boy. Since April 1984, Biya has been hedging and he continues hedging against what he experienced. He has the powers and the means at home and abroad to hedge in any form he desires and he is doing just that because he knows what it means to take up arms against any state institution. He knows Cameroonians but Cameroonians do not know him. Almost all opposition politicians in Cameroon have at one time or the other predicted a civil war situation in Cameroon but none has ever happened and these politicians by issuing their civil war rhetorics, are telling us they are not part of it or could be part of it. They are inferring that some brave Cameroonian can do it and that brave Cameroonian is no one but Biya, and it's unlikely he will bring a civil war to Cameroon. If there is another brave Cameroonian in that respect, they're still to be borne. I don't like reading classroom history here. classroom history was only a light to your faculty and if you have the light in you, bring out the substance.

Watesih

Ma Mary,
Its incredible to see how people have gone into rhapsodies to demonstrate how Biya has been manipulating perceptions to break enemy will.They do this to show that he is invincible,that he knows his people very well,and they don`t know him.All of these clearly negates any activities entities like the SCNC would have pretended to articulate.If you guys think Biya is so dexterous in preventing civil war,you are just saying his dexterity does not spare secession.Is it because of his dexterity that we have not been able to inflict any substantial pain on him up to this moment?
You have also clearly shown that Biya really knows the SCNC,and will merely use intimidation every October 1st. Do you mean if this intimidation continues for ever,there will never be any massive demonstrations? You would want to make us believe strong beer is only sold in Cameroon
.Is there no strong beer in Cote D`Ivoire?
Ma Mary,thanks for outlining the three scary
weapons Biya will use ,and asking Cameroonians not to worry.May be only people in La Republique`s territory drink beer,are afraid of intimidation,and state terror.
Those in the Southern Cameroons territories are immune to these.After few days don`t come back telling us the Southern Cameroons will be independent ,come sun or rain,
because all these scary weapons are still very much in place.

Kumbaboy,
I`m happy you finally owned up by saying the so-called masses need frontline leaders to revolt with results.If your problem is leaders ,they have always got.Fru
Ndi was a frontline leader in 1990 when the masses revolted against one party system.
Steve Biko,Martin Luther King ,Che Guevara,
Mandeala,were all frontline leaders.It is not Because people like Ndam Njoya did not succeed to inflict any pain on Biya,that we will rule out the possibility of a civil war.AS an opinion leader,Ndam Njoya must continue to tell the truth about our present situation. Kumbaboy,pretending to be multidimensional in articulating your views is a laughable publicity.You support despots in foreign lands,and when it concerns your country,you do same to show that the despot who presides over our destiny is so strong that no one can off root him.This shows that your arguments are mono dimensional,because they have undertones of someone always trying to play safe with dictators.
Going back to the role of the masses,i hope you know as i do,that the ideas of the American civil war were used by the French to effect their revolutionary ideals.These ideas were brought home by ordinary soldiers like Marquis de Lafayette,who had come over to help.The immediate cause of the French revolution was the price of bread due to a bad harvest the previous year.The uprising in AbongMbang was as a result of power outages.The French philosophers wrote about the sufferings of the ordinary people.
Whether they were from the aristocracy or not,they identified themselves with the ordinary people,that is why most of them like Danton,Robespierre finally had to be dragged to the Guillotine.

simplice

Ma Mary, in your characterisic eloquence, you point out three pillars of Cameroon Population Control: i.e. state terror, state intimadation and "alcohol".
While the first two club with impersonal controls on the part of the population, the third, can be mastered by every noble citizen. I expected you to futher elucidate that;those advocating the Southern Cameroonian cause are preaching to the masses the dangerous effect of this third cause on examplary basis. By example I mean; the linear relationship between an "inspired revolutionist" and his "beer-free-indenity". Now let Rexon,Paa Ngembus, Mr Nje et al confess they're aren't victim of the third pillar. I suggest Paa Ngembus should be a great beer gulper(Great user of "mboko" language-joking).Please if you can futher this view, I'm much appreciate the effort(that SCNcist aren't beer u-gulpers).

Nay, I will immediately point out the inconsistency of your last pillar(Alcohol).
-Does alcohol not ignite every human being to bring out the hidden truth from his mind?.
-do people not speak the truth and exorcise fear only when they're partially or completely drunk?.
-Is alcohol not used on war fronts to ignite soldiers to fight the "battle of victory"
-was a celebrated philospher so irresponsible and unlettered when he asserted that;"alcohol if rightly used, can cause an unprecedented revolution"?.
Understand my last quote in verbatim;for alcohol is an enemy of fear; a friend of courage.

Kumbaboy

Watesih,

Good you agree Dr Njoya seems like an armchair intellectual – missed many chances to inflict political pain on Paul Biya and is therefore partly responsible for making a tyrant out of the Sangmelima seminarian.

But for John Fru Ndi, Dr Njoya would still be a CPDM party member in a defacto one party state.

It is amusing that a self-proclaimed “beef-eating” Cameroonian sits in England with poor knowledge of history vis-à-vis causes of the Ivory Coast war and the French Revolution; and claps at the thought of a civil war at home. That is demented.

simplice

Kumbay Boy, please watch your rhetorics

Watesih
Watesih

Kumbaboy,
I`ve tried to pay a blind eye to all these your histronics,but you have continued to behave like a mean-spirited rogue.Where did i self-proclaim to be beef eating? Last week I made a joke to you,that since you ran out of ideas as usual,it was better for you to have some British beef with Vally of England.You really lower the bar here with this type of stale soup.
My debate with you was not whether people like Ndam Njoya failed to inflict pain on Biya ,or not.It was that the masses like the one you stupidly called armed bandits at Mokolo are most of the times at the origin of civil wars ,and revolutions.This is what Ndam Njoya is warning about.That is the same reason we used Cote D`Ivoire,French Revolution to show you how the ordinary people are most of the times at the origin of civil wars.We were not here to teach a History lesson.
Finally you swim in your buffoonery by now insisting that the Ndam Njoyas would have hit hard on Biya.Two days ago you were all excuses for Mugabe.So some dictators like Biya should be dealt with ,while others like Mugabe should see their critics go to hell.You are really a mad History guru.This is contemporary History that is above your head.Next time learn to read between the lines before shooting you running mouth off.
When Ndam Njoya talked of people being shot,and killed at Mokolo,you just jumped out of your reverie,and start calling them armed bandits.As a Historian,you would have told a different story to the next generation of Cameroonians,fortunately that people like us are around to redress hyper excited maggots like you.

Kumbaboy

Watesih’s distinguished language in debating opponents:-
“mean-spirited rogue,… mad History guru…., hyper excited maggots…etc.”

Watesih, improve your standard and language. These are national issues and not petty matters in your family. Your language betrays your mindset and is bad - mimicking gross wickedness and hatred.

Foul-mouthing has no place in debates even for a self-centered exile in England excited by predictions of a civil war in Cameroon. There shall be no such cause of death and destruction in Cameroon. Take it from me.

Ma Mary

Simplice, I like to talk about alcohol. There is a good reason why Europeans, at least the British call alchohol-induced courage "Dutch courage". The Dutch have supposedly never won wars.

These are the effects of alcohol:

- It removes inhibitions, so its imbibers lose self-control. An inebriated army deteriorates quite rapidly into an uncontrollable and undisciplined mob.

- It removes judgement, so the intoxicated person becomes impulsive in action and makes bad decisions.

- It damages coordination, so the drunk person loses control over balance and cannot shoot straight and easily gets into accidents when operating machinery or driving.

- It sedates so people who consume easily fall asleep. If you are engaged in an important struggle, you want to easily rouse from sleep and even to fight and overcome sleep.

- It is a poison that shortens life.

- It makes people, especially you men sexually aggressive but unable to perform. The result is that the mob becomes a gang of stinking, repulsive rapists instead of a disciplined force.

On the other hand it is a drug that gives pleasure, but many people do not know how to control it.

Do SCNC people drink? Surely some do, but at least in the SCNC in America, people are not allowed to consume alcohol before or during SCNC business.

As usual I spoke to much. I have no idea whether Rexon or Paa Ngembus or MNje drink, but it is a substance that I treat with a lot of respect.

UnitedStatesOfAfrica

"Do SCNC people drink? Surely some do, but at least in the SCNC in America, people are not allowed to consume alcohol before or during SCNC business."- Ma Mary

Ma Mary is that you? listen to how childish you sound? I am baffled. As much as I disagree with your ideologies, I have always held your wisdom in high esteem. But when I read crap like this, I am disappointed. You were probably drinking some alcohol when you wrote this. Sober up Ma Mary, we want the old you back.

UnitedStatesOfAfrica

Ma Mary, you owe your fans an apology for your drunken attitude.

Watesih

Kumbaboy,
I like raising the bar with mean -spirited rogues like you.Read what Simplice said to you about your rhetorics above.You may think you have the monopoly of being foul-mouthed,no sir!We debated with you few days ago,and you kept blasting home how we were half-baked Africans,how we were only good for the stomach.I`m surprised you could also know that improving somebody`s language is a good thing.On tbhis forum you are the only one who knows History,but when asked to prove your worth,you smear yourself with filth.Are you not the one who said here that Rwanda has decided to embrace English, because an English speaking reporter first reported the carnage to the world? This is what you as a Historian will write for posterity,shame! You are a butterfly that thinks itself a bird,but you might have forgotten the Watesih you are always craving a showdown with.I like people with uncouth manners like you.

Kumbaboy

Watesih,

Your accusation above potrays a poor grasp of facts and a rather short fuse. I NEVER wrote that Rwanda turned to English because English journalists first reported the genocide there to the World.

Go back and read the debates on Zimbabwe to correct yourself. What is wrong with you self-proclaimed British beef-eaters!

Never think your ideas are beyond challenge by contemporaries. When challenge, have the maturity to explain yourself without resorting to foul-mouthing.

Samira Edi

So Adamou Ndam Njoya has now become a scaremonger!! When I read such hot air like the kind of noises coming from Adamou Ndam Njoya, I take a deep breath and try to rise about it. But it is hard.

I get a headache from wondering why these fossilized politicians, people whom we used to hear of as kids, are still around stalking for power. When they lose the elections, they trigger the rumour mill with their scaremongering about War, in order to provoke his handful of supporters to engage in civil disobedience on his behalf.

Let Adamou Ndam Njoya fight his own battle in his backyard. We won’t allow these violent persons to turn Cameroon into another “Rwanda”. On what grounds will there be civil war?

Are his priorities; that is, the need to be president of Cameroon more important than that of the collective? On what policies is he politicking? How can he sell himself? What is his political and personal philosophy? What are his policies to get Cameroon out of our continuous economic, educational, socio-political impasse?

Could he cross his heart in honesty and claim the moral high ground that he is not guilty of corruption, while he cavorted with Biya? Did he did not pilfer from the public purse like others?

These self-righteous unconvicted criminals called political leaders, wear the face of the innocent when they are keen to get on the act. Put them in power and they’ll complete their negative metamorphosis sans pareille.

When the Government fails woefully like they've done in the areas of corruption, economic decline, decaying public infrastructure, dysfunctional pedagogy, civil breakdown, non-existent amenities,—where is Adamu Ndam Njoya as an opposition leader, to hold up the Biya regime to account? We never hear him articulating on national crises.

Instead of shadowing the Government like they ought as opposition leaders, in order to criticize and force the Government to work for the people, they mirror the failures of the same government. Incidentally they were a part of Biya's posse of thieves, until they were defenestrated. They even throw adult tantrums when corrupt money does not cascade down to them.

All those noises are nothing but the humming of personal disgruntlement by people who long to continue enjoying the privileges that they once held.

Was Adamou Ndam Njoya not once the Minister of Education? What did he do to improve the Anglophone Education, when every institution of higher learning was put in the domain of the Francophone? Let him retire and sit on his hands. He has nothing worth listening to and we refuse to rise to his bait for civil war, his hints not withstanding. Like a spoilt brat, he is portends nothing but an ill-omen, when his toys are taken away.

Danny Boy

Fellow Netters,
just read somewhere that there is trouble in Bamenda? Can somebody out there enlighten the forum or have I mis-read the script?
Please forgive me if I am wrong.

simplice

Mr Samira Edi, your analysis of the situation is quite impressive. I must admit we need gentleman of your type on this forum who focus on the subject matter and not on reactionary intriques.

Tekum Mbeng

Ma Mary,

How do you know NAN is Dr Njoya?

By the way the guy was a good minister of national education. He started the expansion of secondary education in the country.

Many credit him for wrestling the scholarship program from forces of nepotism and placing it on a pedestal of excellence and merit. He started the Honours List system and celebrated the first national week in recognition of Cameroonian graduates.

Dr Njoya's reforms led to an upsurge of Cameroonian students with "unknown names" winning scholarships on merit to study in overseas universities. The impact of these brainy kids, now men and women overseas, can be measured now in hard currency returns to the Cameroonian treasury.

Kumbaboy

Tekum Mbeng, you said it in the best words. Great works live for ever.

One man can change the whole system for good or for worse. We hope to read in Dr Njoya’s memoirs how he won the support of the fiscally conservative Ahidjo for the reforms. Dr Ndam Njoya’s fine legacy at the then Ministry of National Education can be contrasted with that of the present Minister of Higher Education in the person of Jacques Fame Ndongo.

We may remember last year that Fame Ndongo gave away the places of students who passed a challenging entrance exam to UB medical school to kids of cronies of the CPDM, some of whom never sat the exam. That act of intellectual dishonesty from the top literally poisoned hard-work amongst students. Corruption permeates all avenues of the Cameroonian society. The worst form is intellectual - justifying basic wrong doing with a feeling of impunity. As expected, the impunity is granted by the presidency of the republic. In a normal society Fame Ndongo would join his colleague to study theology and repent for his cardinal sin.

Watesih

Kumbaboy,
Verbal abuse is the weapon of the weak.You make a statement above that:"The worst form is intellectual -justifying basic wrong doing with a feeling of impunity". Here are you talking about another dictator on the African continent few days ago," The people of Zimbabwe elected him,and he has called new elections in March 2008.Perhaps ,Watesih can offer a strategy to the leader of the Opposition".You already dwarf the efforts of the opposition with this outburst,only to expect so much from the opposition in Cameroon.What do you think of this type of intellectual dishonesty? We bring back these points ,because you are a great Historian,and you must know that our past will keep hunting us.Yeah,lets talk a little bit about the feeling of impunity you are frowning about above! Read on sir,when talking of the same dictator,"His critics, their sick machinations,innuendo,and propaganda can go to hell.MUGABE IS NOT MOVING UNTIL NATURE CALLS". Today you come happing about the Fame Ndongos,and impunity.
Can you tell this forum whether people like Fame Ndongo should kill students in one African country,and should not in another?
Answer my concerns ,and stop distracting people about British beef.I neither live in Britain,as you may love to know,nor do i like eating British beef.Today my concerns dwell around your trying to play the chameleon.You cannot be a wolf in Iran,and a sheep in the Vatican.Over to you!

simplice

Dear Kumba, Watesih has offered you a fair challenge. We await your response with pleasing expectations.

Danny Boy

Simplice,
I am sure Kumba Boy can read and by the way, who told you that "Samira" is a boy's name? For your info, this is a formidable lady who will, I pray, grace this forum with her intellect and wit. You seem already enamoured by her take on the story above. Let us hope she contributes more often.
As for the reported disturbances in Bamenda, it is true that a few persons have lost their lives. Called Bamenda last night and those I spoke to could not state exactly what is happening out there. I do not have the facts to post. Please contact your loved ones if your are worried.
Blessed be our motherland.

simplice

Comrade Samira, please accept apologise for misreading and misinterpretating your identity above. You know,but for Ma Mary, we have vitually few or no other women here. So I prematurely and naturally thought a gentleman should be behind that appealing name:which matches your brilliant viewpoints.
Danny Boy, thanks for the correction and up-date on the Bamenda impasse.

gerald

Good afternoon all,
Let me start by apologising for posting this article culled from the Guardian of Wednesday 17 October 2007. Hope it will be useful information to some of us.

How top London law firms help vulture funds devour their prey

Indebted poor countries are being taken for millions of dollars in the courts
Ashley Seager and James Lewis
Wednesday October 17, 2007
The Guardian
Many debt relief campaigners had been hoping that the headlines about a $50m lawsuit against Zambia by a so-called "vulture" fund earlier this year would mark the end of this controversial legal action.
But as delegates sit down this week at the annual meetings of the International Monetary Fund and World Bank in Washington, they will be presented with figures showing that the vultures are still dragging developing countries into the courts in order to recover unpaid debts from them.
Moreover, research by the Guardian and Legal Business magazine shows that some top London law firms, who claim to support the UN's millennium goals of reducing global poverty, are making fortunes representing the vultures.
Vulture funds buy up sovereign debt issued by poor countries at a fraction of its face value, then sue the countries in courts - usually in London, New York or Paris - for their full face value plus interest.
Donegal International, an offshore vulture fund, burst into the spotlight this year when it won an award for $15m from impoverished Zambia in the UK High Court. Donegal paid $3m for some old Zambian debt, then sued for $55m, although the London judge reduced the award to $15m.
But that was the tip of the iceberg. A paper prepared for the IMF/World Bank meetings this week shows there are now $1.8bn of lawsuits against poor countries where people typically live on less than $1 a day. Eight cases were launched in the past year - five against Nicaragua, two against Cameroon and one against Ethiopia. But the report warns the figures are far from complete and the real totals could be higher still.
It shows that of the 24 countries that have received debt cancellation under the Heavily Indebted Poor Countries initiative, 11 have been targeted for legal action by private creditors. And they have already seen awards in courts of just under $1bn - money that could have been spent on schools and hospitals.
The IMF said litigating creditors were concentrated in the US and UK, as well as UK protectorate tax haven the British Virgin Islands (BVI).
"It's time for concerted action from the UK government, the IMF and the World Bank to tighten up the system and make sure the benefits of debt cancellation go to the people who need them," said Trish Rogers, director of Jubilee Debt Campaign. "We are calling for national and international regulation to stop vulture funds from operating."
Top London law firms are reaping the benefits from bringing many of the vulture funds' cases to court in London. One such is Allen & Overy (A&O), which represented Donegal against Zambia and billed their clients about £2m in fees. The average Zambian survives on less than $1 a day.
But that was far from being an isolated case. Several London law firms have vulture funds as clients or have acted against the interests of poor countries.
Another big firm - Weil Gotshal - acted for a major US vulture fund, Elliott Associates, in the successful pursuit of Peru for $55m in 1995. Elliott is still a client of the firm.
A&O also counts among its clients BVI-based Walker International - another vulture fund, which has sued Congo-Brazzaville for $13m. Michael Sheehan - the man behind Donegal - is also a director of Walker.
A&O is acting for British company Biwater, which was kicked out of Tanzania by the government of that country two years ago for failing to run Dar es Salaam's water system properly. Biwater is suing Tanzania for millions of dollars of damages in a tribunal in the Hague.
Another vulture - Kensington International Ltd, domiciled in the Cayman Islands - is represented by law firm Dechert. In 2003 it sued DR Congo for $30m, again in the High Court in London, although it was then represented by another London law firm.
While representing the vultures in court, law firms Weil Gotshal and Allen & Overy are members of a progressive organisation called Advocates for International Development (A4ID), which aims to support the Millennium Development Goals for reducing global poverty. The organisation also provides pro bono advice to poor countries that otherwise could not defend themselves when attacked - by a vulture fund, for example.
"There is a lot of vulture fund activity in London because of the expertise the city has," said a spokesman.
Advocates for International Development grew out of Oxfam's "1,000 City Lawyers" initiative. Oxfam's head of legal affairs, Joss Saunders, said: "We believe that vulture funds should be outlawed. They undermine debt relief initiatives and the financing of essential services such as health and education on which poor people depend. Oxfam would prefer that law firms do not act for vulture funds."
The big law firms, though, continue to claim they are acting responsibly. Indeed, A&O senior partner Guy Beringer, said last year: "Clearly, we have to always be in the situation where ethical considerations are the fundamental guide for what we do."
The firm declined to comment for this article. A spokesman for Dechert said some of its lawyers were represented on A4ID's managing committee but had not acted for it to date.
A spokesperson for Weil Gotshal said: "Weil Gotshal has a long-standing commitment to pro bono firm-wide, with each office playing a significant role in both local and international activities. In London . . . we are proud to have been involved in the formation of A4ID and to have an ongoing role as one of the trustees of this pioneering organisation."
Gordon Brown has criticised vulture funds and called for international action to ensure that they cannot thrive. He wants the World Bank to help poor countries eliminate their commercial debts and creditors to establish a legal fund to help countries defend themselves. "We are determined to limit the damage done by such funds," he says.
But Liberal Democrat international development spokesperson Lynne Featherstone says that Mr Brown has the power to do more. "He needs to legislate and make it illegal to use London's high court for this. One wants the law firms to come to the conclusion this is a dirty business they don't want to be involved in."
There is an early day motion signed by 110 MPs urging the government to follow the example of influential US Congressman John Conyers, who is pressing President Bush to change US law so that US courts cannot act in ways that contradict the country's foreign policy - in this case, debt relief for poor countries. Most vulture funds originate in the US, though, so a tightening of the law could push more of them to pursue cases in London if they can no longer get their way in the US, meaning that the vultures will continue to circle London for years to come.
Singer's song sheet
The biggest vulture fund is Elliott Associates run by Paul Singer, billionaire donor to President Bush and presidential hopeful Rudi Giuliani.
On one occasion, Elliott spent $12m on "distressed" Peruvian debt in 1996 and four years later forced Peru to pay almost $58m to redeem it. He is reputedly worth £8bn and contributed $300,000 to Bush's election campaign in 2000 (above) and $1.2m in 2004.
He also bought some of Congo's debt for $10m and sued for $127m. The Congolese government was found to be corrupt and under US racketeering law, Singer may be able to claim triple damages, reaping as much as $400m.
• James Lewis is the associate editor of Legal Business

simplice

Gerald many thanks for that update.
Consequently, the question goes: "should vulture funds and their lawsuits be permissible on grounds that, most developing countries are corrupt"?. To flesh my point, Cameroon is cited above as liable for two of such cases. Now given the currupt nature of our gov't official and undemocratic character of institutions:should Cameroon be pursued on grounds that,a great proportion of foreign debts(latter cancelled), never reached( and still do not reach) the masses?.
Waiting for your dynamic contributions.

Kumbaboy

Simplice,

On Watesih’s so-called challenge, it is crucial to note Zimbabwe and Cameroon are two different places. Zimbabwe is struggling to rid itself of vestiges of colonialism foisted on its people by strategy (Lancaster House Agreement) at independence. There are Zimbabwean discussion sites notably in the UK that eloquently present their issues, for example www.zimdaily.com. Reading through contributions, you will find that the harping by Watesih and his accolades, notably US of Africa, matches the rhetoric of Rhodesians most of whom are in the UK. Robert Mugabe is their nemesis.

Zimbabwean contributors, mostly from Southern Africa take a different view and appear to accept present challenges as sacrifices to get to a desirable place. Where they are today is the result of a long bush war with over 50,000 Africans dead and years of mental torture by colonialism. I was in Harare three years ago and read the same contrasts with my own eyes and ears. One thing I can predict is that when all is done, Zimbabwe will rise into prosperity because the basic infrastructure is there.

On the other hand, Jacques Fame Ndongo is the education minister who committed a great act of intellectual dishonesty in Cameroon. His ministry sanctioned a national competitive exam to select the top young talent to attend medical training at the University of Buea. The students took the exam and the scripts were marked by computer at offices of the GCE Board. When the results came out in showing the order of merit, Fame Ndongo was embarrassed arguably because his long legacy at the ministry had a toll on young Cameroonians east of the Mungo: the 1st Francophone was in the 599th position.

In poor reaction, Ndongo fired the UB rector on reasons of procedural infractions and imposed an admissions list which included students who never sat the exam but were kids of the CPDM hierarchy. But for radical Anglophone nationalism, people like Fame Ndongo and his colleagues would have wiped off the Anglophone educational system from the face of the map through decrees (no debate allowed!). That was a case of intellectual dishonesty with bad consequences for a nation. Fame Ndongo’s legacy contrasts sharply with that of Dr Ndam Njoya in the same ministry two decades earlier. No one has yet sanctioned Ndongo for doing little or nothing to raise teaching standards east of the Mungo.

It is patently inappropriate for Watesih to link the above case of intellectual dishonesty to his own inability to separate issues. Misinterpretations of Kumbaboy’s contributions are inconsequential.

rexon

Master's Programme in System-on-Chip (Socware), 120 ECTS
Language of instruction: English

More and more products are today supported by some electronic system. In our everyday life we meet such embedded systems everywhere, in mobile phones, home appliances, cars, medical equipment, or avionics. These electronic systems vary in requirements and complexity and they consist of a combination of hardware and software.

At the very core of such modern systems we have a complex system on chip (SoC), which is a highly sophisticated multiprocessor computer, integrated on a single piece of silicon and composed of hundreds of millions of transistors. A typical SoC consists of digital, analog, mixed-signal, and often radio-frequency functions combined with a complex software layer. Designing and using such a complex system needs multiple skills, beyond a traditional specialisation in electronics, computers, or software.

The SoC master’s programme at the Institute of Technology at Linköping University provides the students with more interdisciplinary skills than a regular Electrical Engineering or Computer Engineering curriculum. These skills are needed for the design of complex SoC systems, consisting of analog/RF ASICs, digital ASICs and embedded software. A number of obligatory courses will provide the students with the broad view and understanding needed in order to master the area. At the same time, a proper selection of optional courses allows the student to specialise in a particular area, such as analog/RF design, digital design, or embedded software.

Labour market
The programme serves as a solid basis for a career as a skilled System-on-Chip engineer in industry. It also constitutes an excellent platform for a possible continuation as a PhD student.

Contact
Petru Eles, petel@ida.liu.se
Mailbox for general questions, studyinfo@liu.se


General requirements
Further information.

Master's Programme in Computer Systems, 120 ECTS
Language of instruction: English

Modern computer systems have grown extremely diverse, from "invisible" computers hidden in our car, mobile phone, or MP3 player, to the familiar PCs or the most sophisticated supercomputers. Most often, these computers do not work in isolation but are interconnected through complex, wired or wireless, networks. It is becoming more and more challenging to design, programme, and efficiently use such systems.

In such a context it is not sufficient to be highly specialised in one particular, relatively narrow area, but it is also needed to get a comprehensive understanding of the various interacting layers, such as hardware, system software, networks, and applications. Exactly this is the basic philosophy of the Computer Systems master programme. The students will be provided the opportunity to get a broad view and understanding of the area, while, at the same time, specializing in one of the following three directions:

- Embedded systems
Computers are present in almost all devises from cars to multimedia and medical equipment. The complex and often safety critical functionality of such devices is achieved as result of a complex interplay between sophisticated software and hardware components. The students will study the modeling, analysis, design, and programming of such systems. The topics include both the architecture of the hardware infrastructure and the software layers, such as real-time operating system, and software development techniques.

- System software
This specialisation is focusing on the design and implementation of system software and complex applications. This includes advanced compiling techniques, operating systems-related issues, advanced databases, but also modern techniques for application development, such as component based software design or programming of parallel computers.

- Networking and Distributed systems
Most modern applications are composed of several interconnected components. This can be a huge network over a large geographic area, or a more compact distributed system, such as in a car. With this specialisation, students will concentrate on issues related to the networking infrastructure, the design of distributed systems, development of distributed software, as well as information security and web programming.

The programme provides a solid theoretical basis as well as the skills needed in order to develop complex systems, according to the most advanced state of the art. This opens for a carrier in high-tech industry or a possible continuation with graduate studies towards a PhD degree.

Contact
Petru Eles, petel@ida.liu.se
Mailbox for general questions, studyinfo@liu.se


General requirements
Further information.

Specific requirements
Preliminary: Applicants are expected to have a Bachelor's degree with a major in computer science, computer engineering or electrical engineering, including the equivalent of at least 30 ECTS credits in mathematics (e.g. continous and discrete mathematics, statistics).

Course start: Autumn 2007
Enrolment code:
Rate of study: Full time
Campus: Linköping
Type of programme: Master’s level

Master's Programme in Biomedical Engineering, 120 ECTS
Language of instruction: English

Biomedical Engineering encompasses fundamental concepts in engineering, biology and medicine to develop innovative approaches and new devices, materials, implants, algorithms, processes and systems for the assessment and evaluation of technology; for prevention, diagnosis, and treatment of disease; for patient care and rehabilitation and for improving medical practice and health care delivery.

The Biomedical Engineering curriculum supports and sustains "Engineering for Health" through a relevant mixture of compulsary and elective courses arranged in a track structure. This enables in-depth as well as broad-based studies.
A master in biomedical engineering should be able to:
• formulate and solve engineering problems in the medical domain, encompassing the design of devices, algorithms, systems, and processes to improve human health and integrating a thorough understanding of the life sciences
• use, propose and evaluate engineering tools and approaches
• identify and manage the particular problems related to the acquisition, processing and interpretion of biomedical signals and images
• integrating engineering and life science knowledge, using modeling and simulation techniques
• communicate engineering problems in the life science domain

The programme is given at Campus Linköping.

Labour market
Biomedical engineers are employed in industry, in hospitals, in research facilities of educational and medical institutions, in teaching, and in government regulatory agencies. They often serve a coordinating or interfacing function, using their background in both the engineering and medical fields. In industry, they may create designs where an in-depth understanding of living systems and of technology is essential. Further studies as a PhD student, either at Linköping University or elsewhere are also possible.

Contact
Göran Salerud, gosal@imt.liu.se
Mailbox for general questions, studyinfo@liu.se


General requirements
Further information.

Specific requirements
Preliminary: Applicants are expected to have a Bachelor's degree with a major in biomedical, electrical, physical, biological or computer engineering or with a major in electronics or physics.
Also the equivalent of at least 30 ECTS credit points in mathematics (calculus, linear algebra, vector calculus, complex functions) and 10 ECTS credit points in physics (mechanics, thermal and statistical physics, electromagnetism, quantum mechanics) qualify for application. If the applicant has another degree it must be conformant to ABET (American Board of Engineering and Technology) specification for Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering. The applicant must also have passed and have learning outcomes in anatomy and physiology at a minimum of 5 ECTS credit points on basic level. There will be possibilities to qualify during the first semester in anatomy and physiology.

Course start: Autumn 2007
Enrolment code:
Rate of study: Full time
Campus: Linköping
Type of programme: Master’s level

rexon

Master's Programme in Materials Physics and Nanotechnology, 120 ECTS
Language of instruction: English

The Master's Programme in Materials Physics and Nanotechnology focuses on the physics of novel materials.

The programme is supported by a number of internationally known research divisions at the Department of Physics, Chemistry and Biology, and is directed towards students aiming at university or industry careers in materials related research and development.

The applications and importance of advanced materials in today's technology are best exemplified by highly purified semiconductor crystals, which are the basis of the "electronic age''. Future applications in electronics and photonics will include nanoscaled physics, molecular electronics, non-linear optics etc.

The master's programme in Materials Physics and Nanotechnology covers a wide range of materials including materials used in semiconductor technology, optoelectronics, biotechnical applications (biocompatibility), chemical and bio-sensors, mechanical applications such as hardness and elasticity etc.

Labour market
The programme prepares students for university or industry careers in materials related research and development.

Contact
Leif Johansson, lij@ifm.liu.se
Mailbox for general questions, studyinfo@liu.se


General requirements
Further information.

Specific requirements
Preliminary: Applicants are expected to have a Bachelor’s degree with a major in physics including at least 30 ECTS credits in mathematics (calculus, linear algebra, vector calculus, complex functions), and basic courses in mechanics, thermal and statistical physics, electromagnetism, quantum mechanics.

Course start: Autumn 2007
Enrolment code:
Rate of study: Full time
Campus: Linköping
Type of programme: Master’s level

Master's Programme in Software Engineering and Management, 120 ECTS
Language of instruction: English

Successful development, operation and maintenance of large software-based systems are a true technical and managerial challenge for industry. We believe there will be many opportunities for people who are prepared to take both the technical and economic responsibility for such products. A person educated according to this vision must have solid technical knowledge to make well-informed, independent decisions.

To support this, the Master’s programme in Software Engineering and Management offers a variety of courses in development methods, design, testing, measurement and modelling of software. This includes practical projects where industry relevant experience is gained. Some programming is a prerequisite but there will be possibilities to get training in advanced programming as well.

A large development or maintenance project means that many people need to be coordinated, both within the own company and with different partners spread all over the world. It is also vital to be able to evaluate the economic value of the system and make sure that the usability of the system helps the customer to utilize the full economic potential. To prepare our students for this challenge we offer courses in project management, technical and economic evaluation, usability engineering, the relation between organisational goals and IT-systems, and company leadership.

Contact
Kristian Sandahl, krs@ida.liu.se
Mailbox for general questions, studyinfo@liu.se


General requirements
Further information.

Specific requirements
Preliminary: Applicants are expected to have a Bachelor’s degree with a major in computer science, software engineering, computer engineering, information systems, information technology, business, economics or similar including at least 20 ECTS credits in mathematics (e.g. operational analysis, statistics, calculus, algebra, discrete mathemtics), at least 40 ECTS credits in computer related subjects (e.g. software engineering, programming, databases, hardware, data networks) and at least 10 ECTS credits in economics (e.g. organization theory, project management, consumer behaviour, evaluation models).

Course start: Autumn 2007
Enrolment code:
Rate of study: Full time
Campus: Linköping
Type of programme: Master’s level

simplice

Watesih, from Kumba Boy's comment, the precedent of the Zimbabwean crisis is based on "political immorality"; and consequently, Mugabe is trying to solve a problem closedly bind to the diction of his compatriots. On the other hand Jacques Fame Ndongo reacionary, intergration of "CPDM driven" students who didn't even seat for an exam, can best be equated to the source of the Zibabwean palaver and not a consequence. Please understand pretty well my interpretation of this. In sum and substance, Kumba Boy advocates:"Mugabe was pushed into doing what he's implementing as nationalistic policy-controversial land reform"(this is an effect); wheras Jacques Fame Ndongo is the cause to a problem. Good understanding of the matter rest on le "rapport cause à effet". While the former is an "effect" ,the latter is "cause" . And Kumbayboy is simply trying the "effect"(as Mugabe;though diffently:just raising awareness), something caused by JFNdongo.
Cheers.

Watesih

EVENTS IN BAMENDA

ON Monday October 15th,at about 8pm,a procession of Binskin drivers was streaming in to Bamenda from Bafut where they had taken part in a burial ceremony.The first group went through the Police checkpoint hitch free.When it came to the turn of one Marc Douho Ngwafang 21,who should been among the second group,the Police barred him from going through.The front wheel of his bike was torn apart by a sharp object a Policemen had placed on the road to dissuade drivers from forcing their way through.The Motorbike subsequently projected him into a gutter,and he was fatally wounded.He`s said to be receiving treatment at the St. Mary Solidad in Bamenda.
Marc Douho fellow Benskin drivers did not take this with a pinch of salt.They protested by setting up roadblocks around the city of Bamenda.The Police came in with a heavy hand and arrested 7 of them,and ferried them away to GMI no- 6.At this juncture,tempers were hanging on a short fuse,so the Benskin drivers did everything to have their voices heard.Early on October 16th,they organised a march,and wanted to see the Assistant SDO for Bamenda to no avail.They then proceeded to the premises of the GMI 6 to have their colleagues released.
They started throwing stones at a passing Police Pick-up truck,thereby fatally wounding one of them on the head.This is where hell broke loose on them.The men in uniform used their iron fist,as they are prone to doing,and in the tit for tat feud that followed ,two strikers were fatally wounded,and later died.Calm only returnd when the First Assistant Prefect for Mezam, convened a meeting with Police authorities, and sought the release of those held.An uneasy calm now reigns in Bamenda.

Watesih

Simplice,
Political immorality is a situation where politicians take unpopular,
dictatorial,and shameful decisions that endanger the lives of their citizens.This is what Mugabe did,and this what Fame Ndongo did.I did not ask Kumbaboy to make a distinction between Fame Ndongo ,and Mugabe,because we all know how they differ.I asked him to tell us why he should run his mouth for such a dictator,but pretend to criticise another dictator like Fame Ndongo. He has not answered this question,because he can`t.I am saying that since he asked those who criticise Mugabe to go to hell ,he should equally ask those who criticise Fame Ndongo to do same.This is logic,and no amount of communication gymnastics by Kumbaboy can frighten anybody here.The second point has to do with his undermining the opposition in Zimbabwe ,but pretending to criticise the one in Cameroon.All this borders around intellectual dishonesty.

simplice

Mr Watesih, many thanks for the update.
With due respect Mr Watesih, however I agree to your definition of political immorality, from a simplistic viewpoint,my definiton of it is:"politically preaching virtue and politically practicing vice". Internationally, the Lancaster House Agreements failure to a certain degree might to associated with that definition from a broad perspective. Mugabe on the other hand too becomes a bird of thesame feather in in his attempt not to be one. Good.But I think what matters here is that, at a certain degree political immorality maybe used to correct political immorality for longterm benefits(What Mugabe is doing)
Now I understand Kumbayboy gave us another ample and exhaustive analysis without touching the nucleus of the preoccupation(Question).
Kumbaboy, I'll put forward the question again in more straight forward and simplistic terms:"Isn't it a Startling Constrat that you advocate for Mugabe's fame in his political decisions and yet denounce he likes in the person of Jacque Fames Ndongo?.". Kumbay, Before you attempt another answer to the question, please first confirm below hypothesis:
-can Mugabe politically be equated to Jacques Fames Ndongo?.
-can the political context of Zimbabwe be likened to that of Cameroon?.
If your answers to above questions are no,and no?. then you need not answer Watesih's question; as your last comment substaintially does.
However, if yours answers be yes,yes: yes,no or no, yes, then we still need some clarification.
The student.

Danny Boy

Watesih,
could have addressed Kumba Boy similarly about this question of "intellectual dishonesty" which seems to be moving this debate forwards! Where is it, there I ask?

Kumbaboy

There is no perfection in humans. Kumbaboy has given his reasons for backing Robert Mugabe and the majority of his countrymen/women on their policy of forced land reforms. I sharply criticize Fame Ndongo for exercising intellectual dishonesty at the highest level.

It is up to Watesih and others to counter KB and others, explaining their reasons. That is all about debates.

Watesih

Danny,
Here it is! KB wrote," The people of Zimbabwe elected him,and he has called for new elections in March.Perhaps Watesih can offer a strategy to the leader of the Opposition".This shows disregard for the opposition in Zimbabwe ,and it will be intellectually dishonest to start happing about what the Ndam Njoyas must have done to Biya in Cameroon.
Sharply criticising Fame Ndongo for impunity ,and vindicating Mugabe who seized lands from people with impunity thereby plunging his country in misery is intellectual dishonesty.The Biyas ,and Ndam Njoyas will also claim their failed ,and unpopular policies have been geared at alleviating the plight of the people,so why criticise them?

Kumbaboy

Watesih writes “Sharply criticising Fame Ndongo for impunity ,and vindicating Mugabe who seized lands from people with impunity thereby plunging his country in misery is intellectual dishonesty”
This is the most uninformed ranting I have ever read. It derates Africa’s struggle for decolonization and undermines its peoples determination to overcome deception by big powers. Watesih’s argument places food before principle as previously advocated by US of Africa and is akin to the “politics of the stomach” well-known amongst unprincipled Cameroonian politicians.

Zimbabawe cannot be free when its natives are dispossessed of their best ancestral lands. The great US State of New Hampshire has a simple motto: TOTAL FREEDOM OR DEATH. There is meaning there which Watesih and US of Africa need to master. Having fought a deadly war to rid their land of subjugation, humiliation and dispossession, it is crucial that the nationalist government of Robert Mugabe completes the liberation struggle. The colonialist is now using a different weapon – FOOD - which weak-minded people easily succumb to.

Fame Ndongo is a civil servant, probably never fired a gun (in anger) like most of his countrymen/women and is in charge of a crucial ministry. KB and many others hold him for exercising “ intellectual dishonesty” over the controversial 2006 admissions to UB medical school. We dismiss his theorem of regional balance and accuse him of cowardice – unable to confront the francophone educational establishment and improve teaching standards east of the Mungo.

Tekum Mbeng

Kumbaboy,

I would argue that the Cameroon Government’s policy of regional balance not be applied to educational establishments. The best encouragement to the youth, regardless of tribe, is to make them understand ability counts at all times and to improve teaching standards nationally.

The successful students whose places were confiscated by Fame Ndongo and passed over to kids of CPDM cronies can sue the Minister for violating their constitutional rights. One of the premier articles of the Cameroon constitution guarantees equality. It says nothing about the said "regional balance" hypothesis invoked by Minister Ndongo during the UBMS admissions crisis last year.

Fame Ndongo did knowingly violate the constitutional rights of many aspiring students to UB medical school. The same mechanism continues to harm young aspiring talents to ENAM, EMIA, CUSS and other places of learning.

No doubt many of the local grads are as corrupt as the politicians, having learnt thieving methods from the older hands. It is a chronic cycle of vice, denial and theorizing in high places.

Watesih

Kumbaboy,
You miss the point again.Answer this directly.When you undermine the efforts of the Opposition in Zimbabwe,and pretend to hold the Opposition in Cameroon to task,what do you think of your mind? This is what you said:" The people of Zimbabwe elected him,and he has called for new elections in March.Perhaps Watesih can offer a strategy to the leader of the Opposition".We are talking about the opposition,because today Mugabe is killing members of this opposition who oppose his land reform policy.These are the same citizens he says he has seized lands for their wellbeing.Again we know the difference between Fame Ndongo,and Mugabe,but their common denominator is that they are despots.One is killing students because he wants to promote the so called regional balance,the other is killing his citizens for criticising his lands reforms.
Get it clear,we have not refused Mugabe`s claim that he is seizing lands for the wellbeing of his people.What we are saying is that you can`t kill all these people before they ever grow a plant on that land.A despot is a despot,be he a Minister or a President.You have continuously been trying to pretend here that others easily succumb to food as if you live in a different planet
where people don`t eat,or where dictators famish their people ,and should not be criticised.Fame Ndongo,and Mugabe all have reasons for being despots,but we are saying that it is intellectual dishonesty to hail one as a hero,and the other as a devil.Biya will also claim that it is because he wants to bring democracy to the country that he has brought misery to Cameroonians.We do not kick against the fact that Fame Ndongo is not intellectually dishonest,we are saying that you Kumbaboy are equally intellectually dishonest,because if Mugabe were not killing the same people he pretends to seize lands for ,they will even be no need to call him a despot,but you hail him,and come home pretending to be omniscient about the defects of the Fame Ndongos.

simplice

Kumbayboy, this is the core of the matter:"Watesih insinuates: as much as majority of the Population back in Zimbabwe hail Mugabe for his controversial Land reform,majority of French Speaking Cameroonians hailed JFNdongo for his controversial regional balance schemme,perpetuated in UB last year". Consequently, as much you side with Mugabe on grounds of him being democratically acclaimed, you should also club with JFNdong;intelectually and anologically speaking".Any antagonistic position will amount to "intellectual dishonesty".
Kumbaboy,please go straight to the point and be dialectical in your response to this preoccupation.
The student

Kumbaboy

Simplice,

Between Fame Ndongo and Robert Mugabe, Watesih’s contention is that “it is intellectual dishonesty to hail one as a hero, and the other as a devil” even though his messages appear mixed up at times.

The issues in contention are about legacies. The trouble with Watesih is that he mixes everything up and draws a line for or against an individual personality. He accuses Mugabe of “ceasing land from his people thereby plunging his country in misery”. This is the language of an innocent kid who blames the parent for sowing the seeds he/she should have eaten to avoid hunger now. Watesih simply does not understand the dynamic in Zinbabwe.

Take the case of Robert Mugabe, everyone acknowledges that the human rights situation in Zimbabwe under his watch deserves improvement. Robert Mugabe has not set out to “kill all the people” as Watesih claims as part of his extreme strategy to paint the leader with a wide black brush. However, on forced land reforms following British withdrawal from Lancaster House accord, many acknowledge the direction taken by the Mugabe government. Even his critics in the British Press acknowledge that Africans can assert themselves over what is theirs.

On Fame Ndongo, he is no hero to informed Francophones who now flood English language schools all over the country. I do not know whether Watesih followed up the contributions in this channel in recent years about declining teaching standards east of the Mungo. Fame Ndongo is responsible for higher education in Cameroon and can only be assessed in that portfolio. In that vein, Dr Njoya is praised for his reform package in that ministry over 20 years ago. Disparities in educational standards east and west of the Mungo can and will sow the seeds for trouble later.

KB will not join Watesih in his simplistic view of the world as black or white.

Watesih

Simplice,
All we can do is just sit back and laugh.Your man KB has been caught in his own inconsistences.Just read this rambling of the century:"He accuses Mugabe of seizing lands from his people thereby plunging his people in misery",and KB uses a poor popular saying that Mugabe might have taught him when he visited there,"This is the language of a kid who blames the parents for sowing the seeds he would have eaten to avoid hunger", only to painfully,and shamefully tell the world that:" However ,on forced land reforms following British withdrawal from Lancaster House Accord,many acknowledge the direction taken by the Mugabe government ".KB,thanks a lot for being one of those who acknowledge this wrong direction.Readers knew you were going to face the truth at last,though you kept telling Mugabe`s critics to go to hell.It is strange to here KB telling the world that," everyone acknowledges that the human rights situation in Zimbabwe under his watch needs improvement" .What would the critics he asked to go to hell think of him?
Can any one now doubt the intellectual dishonesty of this Kumbaboy?
Simplice KB nearly passed out with confusion.He wrote three different ideas on one line without knowing where he was headed for," Fame Ndongo is responsible for higher education in Cameroon ,and can only be assessed in that portfolio.In that vein,( which vein?)Dr Njoya is praised for his reform package in that Ministry( which ministry?)over 20 years ago.Disparities in educational standards east and west of the Mungo can and will sow sees for trouble later".
Simplice he did not answer the question you posed him ,because he says my messages appear mixed up when i say ," it is intellectual dishonesty to hail one as a hero,and the other as a devil". My messages appear mixed up ,yet he tells us that Fame Ndongo is not hailed by Francophones,and that the human rights situation under Mugabe finally deserves improvement.This guy is suffering from intellectual dishonesty!

Kumbaboy

Watesih,

IF you do not remember that Dr Ndam Njoya served as the Cameroon Minister of National Education towards the final years of the Ahmadou Ahidgo government THEN I have no debate with you. Blame goes to teaching standards in your Cameroon secondary school.

Perhaps you can tell us why Fame Ndongo does not deserve KB's criticism. Make the case for regional balance.

Instead of makng persuasive arguments, you spend time appraising other peoples' comments like a headless chicken. The issues being discussed involve public policy questions. There are usually no clear answers that meet short term and longterm strategic goals. However, someone must make a decision.

And, stay away from British beef.

rexon

Kumbaboy,

The day your ideas became unrealistic to these people was the day you wrote here that the SDF have no credible plan for the people of the Southern Cameroons. As far as these people are concerned, you are their enemy simply because you spoke out against their business with Biya and they will fight you to dead. No discourse here is about Mugabe Sir.

By the way, where is Feli and Atangha? Dining with their paymasters.

Cheers.

Kumbaboy

Rexon,

And I will say it again: “the SDF has no credible plan for the people of the Southern Cameroons”. If there is a plan, what is it?

I respect Ni John Fru Ndi as a Cameroonian hero. However, the political party he founded served to re-awaken political pluralism in the country but it (SDF) faces an impossible task against the incumbency of the CPDM because the absence of an independent electoral commission means no clear electoral law and the playing field is tipped in the CPDM’s favour.

I found myself debating some pro-SDF chaps (based on their contributions in previous debates), who surprisingly advocate racism, albeit timidly, by wanting the Whiteman “kicked out” of Africa but have nothing to do with it themselves. They also want guarantees of food availability in the event of such action. One of them attempted to debate the legacy of Fame Ndongo (current higher education minister) but had no knowledge of Dr Ndam Njoya – one of the most reforming ministers ever to administer the entire national education portfolio in Cameroon.

The solution to such manifestations is direct confrontation.

simplice

Let a right minded person reconcile these phrases:
"By the way, where is Feli and Atangha? Dining with their paymasters" by Rexon,
with
"Where is Rexon,I think he should be renewing his asylum documents" by USAfrica.
And Rexon the compliment of your statement above only goes to derail the core of a debate we're enjoying. How the hell, do think Watesih is merely arguing on partisan lines?. Don't you see his dialectical presentation of facts?. Don't you ackwoledge the pertinent questions he's been forwarding to Kumbaboy as relevant?.
I once thought the legacy of subjective "Rexonism" on this forum was coming to an end.For your comment is not based on reason and logic;but spirited by some sectarian interest.On my part ,I think the Mugabe issue confronting us,cross party lines. Please stop confusing matters at hand.
At the moment, both Watesih and Kumbaboy seem to see that Mugabe;presently speaking: has some poor governance. The only antagonism is; while the latter thinks it's long term effects will benefit the nation and African Integrity, the former believes:"you cannot be killing(starvation and co) people today and planning for their future". And you come in Rexon with another propangandistic quibble, aimed at masking your demagogical identity. I think this is an eloquent testimony of "Overt Intellectual Dishonesty".
The student

Tekum Mbeng

Simplice,

your description above is also tilted.

Kumbaboy seems to be saying that Mugabe is not the direct cause of starvation in Zimbabwe. He blames those who impose sanctions in a neocolonial strategy to use food and economic paralysis as a weapon against African nationalism. that arguably is the British plan. A long time ago, they (British) used a similar strategy against the Irish to drive them off Ireland but failed.

By stating that Fame Ndongo "killed" students at UB, Watesih missed the point.
The minister never fired a shot and was not in Buea during the uprising. There was a confrontation and our ill-prepared security forces opened fire on unarmed students - a matter of bad discipline. We have seen no track suggesting anyone in Yaounde gave orders to shoot to kill. Perhaps Watesih has that information to underpin his wild generalisation.

Watesih

Kumbaboy,
What i read in what you write is difficult for you to comprehend." Fame Ndongo is responsible for higher education in Cameroon ,and can only be assessed in that portfolio.In that vein,( which vein?)Dr Njoya is praised for his reform package in that Ministry( which ministry?)over 20 years ago.You were so confused that you jumped from Fame Ndongo to Dr Njoya,showing that they served in the same Ministry.That is why I asked you which Ministry?Why should you not blame our secondary schools,your own secondary schools transformed you into a mean -spirited rogue,who thinks his verbal dysentery has anything to do to others outside his home.How can we know Ndam Njoyas tenure as Minister.Here you are the only one who went to good schools,read History.
Nobody says you should not criticise Fame Ndongo.We are saying you should not ask those who criticise Mugabe to go to hell.
This is intellectual dishonesty.Your bullheadedness associating some of us to British beef is not different from Mugabe`s bullheadedness to carry on carry with an unpopular land reform,killing those who dare oppose him.

Simplice,
Don`t worry about Rexon.He is one of the those who can`t stand an intellectual debate.He came in once or twice with rubbish given to him by those who pull him along the nose to post about the SDF,but no body read that.Let his family continue fighting their infatida against the SDF.HIs elder brother feeds a part of his family by licking the ass of people like Charles Doumba,and he is responsible for fighting the party at the international scene.Rexon is one of the most dangerous Cameroonians out there.When Southern Cameroonians go on strike in Britain,you never see him there,but he will come happing about how he was organising other rallies under his bed.He asks people not to go out ,and vote in Cameroon,but he rushes to foreign countries to vote.
Is Kumbaboy the only one here who has said
the SDF has no credible plan for the people of Southern Cameroons.Of course not! Why should we take a brother as enemy because he criticises a party? Ma Mary, Pa Ngembus,Nje and many others use this same sentence on daily bases,and we debate with them,each person holding his own position.Why should enmity come in here Mr Rexon? We know Rexon is an accountant ,or is it would be accountant ,and many topics that deal with social issues are above his head,but that is just why people should open up,and read widely ,rather than being dogmatic forever.

Tekum Mbeng,
I don`t want to go into any lecturing here.When we say in English:"you were a lion in the fight",doesn`t imply you were actually a lion.It means you fought fiercely as a lion would do.A word to a wise is enough!
T.Mbeng,yeah lets accept Mugabe is not the direct cause of the situation in Zimbabwe.He is an aggregated factor to it.So why would somebody ask those who criticise his own role in this difficult situation to go to hell.Mugabe murders those who are too vocal about his land reforms,and we are told to go to hell than criticise him,only to come back to Cameroon and accuse Fame Ndongo of impunity when he imposes a list,and later murders our students.That is nothing short of intellectual dishonesty!

Watesih

Errata, intifada.

simplice

T.Mbeng. If at all the allegations you're insinuating on my person with regard my assertion of Kumbayboy's "last but three" comment, still proves valid(after digestion of Watesih's comment) here is the substance of my inference:
"Take the case of Robert Mugabe, everyone acknowledges that the human rights situation in Zimbabwe under his watch deserves improvement." by KumbaBoy
Now tell me what he means by this T Mbeng?. Is not this some modicom of acknowedgement that, Mugabe's policies undermines his peoples rights?. Can voilating his peoples rights not be equated to the violating of the rights of some UB students last year;under the custody of JFNdongo?.
Kumba, tell T.Mbeng what you meant by that if my analysis if flawed.

Jesco

Simplice or whatever you call yourself! Who designated you moderator on this forum. We are not in a conferencing arena and a student worth his salt since you claim to be one, listens more and does not involve in too-frequent erratic postings! I think somebody already pointed out that people can read. Spare us your "studently" rhectorics!

Tekum Mbeng

Watesih,

You evaded my cardinal question. Yesterday, you wrote that Jacques Fame Ndongo “killed” students at UB. You repeated the same allegation this morning and tried to de-emphasize it by switching to a violation of student rights. That is plain flip-flopping and is unacceptable. Murder and rights violation are distinctively different.

What is known is that the minister imposed a controversial admissions list that triggered a student uprising at UB and security forces opened fire.

There is however no evidence that the minister or anyone in Yaounde gave orders for students to be shot dead or alive. Until such evidence is available, the killing remains the handiwork of stupid elements of Cameroon’s security forces that are known to have opened fire.

Your verbalization of the issue is confirming what Kumbaboy is saying, that Watesih is basically unable to separate issues and deal with the components based on facts. Watesih mixes up issues like an illiterate and draws broad conclusions. That is the weakness in your arguments.

Good debaters are driven by facts and not conclusions(Watesih’s style). You are unable to explain the basis of your allegation that Fame Ndongo “killed” or “murdered” students at UB. These are your own words.

Give us the evidence Watesih.

simplice

"Simplice or whatever you call yourself! Who designated you moderator on this forum. We are not in a conferencing arena and a student worth his salt since you claim to be one, listens more and does not involve in too-frequent erratic postings! I think somebody already pointed out that people can read. Spare us your "studently" rhectorics!" by Jesco

Gentleman, I very much respect your viempoint.Considering it from a literally angle;I'm no moderator on this forum. Nobody appointed me one(hope your curiousity has been satisfied).Do you reproach me for asking questions when I don't understand the great minds of this forum?. Mr Jesco, I shall carry on with my questions; stopping is the nearest thing to eternal life you'll ever see on this earth. You need not approve of my studenship;but the reality is I'm one.
And let us disect with some acuteness the substance of your "rhetoric". Can you tell me what is better?.Asking questions as Simplice or writing a ill-inspired comment to stop Simplice from asking questions?.By asking Simplice to stop his meagre contribution to the well being of the forum, have you questioned yourself of what you'll lose or gain if I had to stop asking questions?. In detail,in either case you'll neither gain nor lose anything.
Consequently I have no business with you.I counsel you to skip my comments anytime you catch sight of them and can appeal to the testimony of my intergrity that, so long as I have health and breath, I'll never stop asking questions.

To this regard, I have a question to ask of you: what have you to say regarding the matter at hand, for I thought; after lampooning me, you'll go futher to drop a syllable of concern on the Zibabwean crisis. I await your anwser gentleman.

Watesih

Tekum Mbeng,
If you discovered that Kumbaboy ran out of steam,and you wanted to come to his rescue,you would have shown the civility of a great debater.But you also started off with invectives,reducing me to the level of an illiterate.What everybody would be surprised about is how an intellectual like you would want those of us who mix us issues like illiterates to answer their questions. That not withstanding,i will restate my mixed up points,and you help separate them for readers.There have been two points all along.The first one is that Kumbaboy undermines the efforts of the opposition in Zimbabwe,but is so vocal in criticising the opposition in Cameroon,so i deem this intellectual dishonesty.To buttress my points ,i have all along quoted what he wrote earlier,"The people of Zimbabwe elected him,and he has called for new elections in March 2008.Perhaps Watesih can offer a strategy to the leader of the opposition!". My secocnd point hovers around Kumbaboy`s frowning at Fame Ndongo`s impunity.I came in here to show him that he supported another dictator accused of impunity in Zimbabwe,and it will be intellectual dishonesty to treat one as a hero,and treat the other as a devil.My argument is always supported by facts:KB wrote,"Hiscritics,their sick machinations, innuendo,and propaganda can go to hell. Mugabe is not moving until nature calls!". This is the spirit of impunity he is decrying about Fame Ndongo,isn`t it T.Mbeng?
T. Mbeng since you say good debaters are driven by facts,Kumbaboy later ate his words ,and stopped asking Mugabe`s critics to go to hell,"Take the case of Robert Mugabe, everyone acknowledges that the human rights situation in Zimbabwe under his watch deserves improvement.This smacks of intellectual dishonesty.You can`t ask somebody`s critics to go to hell,and at the same time say everyone of them acknowledge that the situation under him is bad.Of course they do,and that is why they are
criticising him!
T.Mbeng,as to my allegations that Fame Ndongo murdered students,i gave you the tip of an iceberg on how language is used,but you did not ruminate it,because you were too busy trying to come of with a killer sentence showing me as somebody who mixes up facts as an illiterate.Let me just make things easy for you.When you read on placards that George Bush,Biya, Charles Taylor, Mugabe are murderers,so you actually think they themselves actually go out to the streets ,to Iraq,to kill? No, T. Mbeng,it means they are the authorities of a given sector,country ,entity and are directly responsible for passing down decisions to their surbordinates.That is why every Police unit has a leader,and the over all leader is the Delegate General for National security.
That is why he is the one who comes out to clarify national opinion when his men are found wanting.That is why in western democracies,they will take the responsibility ,and resign.You live in the US,so i have nothing to teach you here.
My last point to you has to do with the way you try to disgrace yourself in front of the world.You come up with those cheap slogans that only dictators like Biya,and Mugabe are known to cherish.Telling people they are no proofs for crimes committed,and asking them to bring the proofs.The world and Cameroonians never knew there was somebody like you who doubted that Yaounde ordered the killing of students in Buea.You are now teaching everybody that it was the handiwork of stupid elements of Cameroon`s security forces.Yeah,T Mbeng the dismissal of Lambi was also the handiwork of some stupid elements of Cameroon`s Ministry of higher education.I do not yet want to put you in a category now.I want you to continue shooting off your mouth because you think everyone is a debater.

M Nje

Kumbaboy,
Let me tell you something about debating people like Watesih.

First, you get to learn nothing new. They will keep up recycling your previous comment, bring in irrelevant comments which do not create any intellectual curiosity. It is a vicious cycle.

Secondly, They see the world through the prism of the stomach. If something brings me daily bread, then it must be good even if the long term effect may not be favorable. In one of my exchange with Watesih here, he gave the impression the SDF brings small garri (what ever food analogy he used) from La Republique and pass some of it to the people, and he wanted to know what those of us supporting the Southern Cameroons have done to the people. Apparently bring small garri or whatever food item to the people (what ever that means) is a very big achievement for a political party. It fits in the mindset of if I can get FOOD from something, it must be good.

Third, if you say anything against the SDF and its God chosen leader, Ni John Fru Ndi, then any other point of view you may have on any other issue in life must be something they should ague again. Even if your disagreement is on strategic issues.

Fourth is the method of misrepresentation of your previous words. They will bring out your previous words without providing the context you used them. They will not fail to bring them even in an exchange where they are irrelevant to the current thread.

Tekum Mbeng,
It is interesting to hear you say "Your verbalization of the issue is confirming what Kumbaboy is saying, that Watesih is basically unable to separate issues and deal with the components based on facts. Watesih mixes up issues like an illiterate and draws broad conclusions. That is the weakness in your arguments."

I have told Watesih in the past and he knows it that either he lacks a basic understanding of issues and is completely naive or he is a hypocrate. It is interesting to hear you say what you said above. Just go to the records in this forum and read some of the encounters I have had with him, and you will find a similar sentiment. His disregard or inability to understand FACTS makes you wonder what exactly he is trying to advance.


Watesih, there is nothing personnel about anything I said above. In live, there are some things that we known, some we don’t know, and some we don’t know that we don’t know (that is a paraphrase from Donald Rumsfled). Please try to weight you views well before you express them. Make sure they are relevant and supported with FACTS.

Kumbaboy

Tekum Mbeng and others,

The likes of Watesih are many in Cameroon. Note Watesih’s ability to skirt around the issue and invoke other issues that are completely above his grasp. I was disappointed on finding out the chap commented about Dr Adamou Ndam Njoya without knowing his legacy in reforming the Cameroon education system.

Watesih quips “The first one is that Kumbaboy undermines the efforts of the opposition in Zimbabwe, but is so vocal in criticizing the opposition in Cameroon, so i deem this intellectual dishonesty”. A stranger reading Watesih’s argument would think Fame Ndongo is in the Opposition.
Watesih is opposed to sharp criticisms of the Cameroon Opposition, particularly of the SDF.

Watesih prefers all criticisms to be leveled against the Biya Government which he describes as “killers”, “despots”, etc. That is the language of a party political partisan. He mistakes this forum for a party political channel.

Watesih's mentality is about winning the debate by manipulating and misrepresenting the expressed views of others. However, I am taking a closer view at his contributions and will continue to challenge him, time permitting.

simplice

"Watesih quips “The first one is that Kumbaboy undermines the efforts of the opposition in Zimbabwe, but is so vocal in criticizing the opposition in Cameroon, so i deem this intellectual dishonesty”. A stranger reading Watesih’s argument would think Fame Ndongo is in the Opposition." by Kumbaboy
Kumbayboy;that quotation is right, but does your second setence reflect you understood the quotation in context?.

tayong

Hey guys dont take off the gloves yet...!

I think the position of Kumbaboy is a complicated one to articulate.Talking about the Mugabe issue is something that tears Africans into shreds.Its complicated , why? Its difficult to harp between resistance to white manupulation & domination of Zimbabwe and concerns for the oppressed due to Mugabe's dictatorship.

Kumbaboy's argument falls into that of the new Africans generation resistance to that white dominance and oppression. The same reason why Mandela and the rest of South African countries stand behind Mugabe and his policy. This has nothing to do with supporting dictators.It might be seen as inconsistencies to some people but those with the spirit of Thomas Sankara see it otherwise.

Similar arguments pass for why alot of people even of non Muslim heritage are mad at America.Americans created Bin Laden and made billions with him yet when he turns against them the same Americans cry foul and wants the rest of the world to demonise muslims.Does this mean that alot of people support terrorism , far from that.People are simply saying, ...as you make your bed so must you lie on it period.

You cannot equate this to the Fame Ndongos or whatever he's called.Then it's unacceptably benign and provocative for someone to redicule Kumbaboy for stating the obvious that the opposition in Cameroon is a big failure.For 16 years Ndam Njoya et co havent been able to stand up to Biya yet they take to the rostrum to declare how Cameroon is at the brink of war.Who will fight the war?

A group of belly politicans passing for freedom fighters. Bello is comfortably enjoying his booties from Biya, Ndam Njoya has just exhangeed his parliamentary seat with the wife,Kudock is spitting saliva in Nyong and Nkelle after Biya dumbed him,JJ Ekindi("le chaseur de lion est maintennat chasé par le Lion) now prepares to enjoy the parliamentary cake from Yde, Mboua Massock, "le pére de Vie Morte" drinks Odontol in Bepanda, Mr Fru Ndi is running helter skelter about electoral fraud with 16 seats in parlaiment, ........

Can someone deride Kumbaboy for stating the obvious? .These guys are big time failures, They cant work together, they cant resist their own age mate as Kumnaboy would put it, they cant get anything done. The question is, who'll fight the purported war?And for sure not the same people that underwent ghost towns and boycotts while being betrayed by the architects.These guys must face off to Biya or continue to wallow in the quagmire. Hey, did you read about the new Movement to convince Biya to run for elections come 2011?"L'impossible n'est pas camerounais".Wait and see!

Cheers guys and dont get your gloves off yet!
Tayong

Watesih

Nje,
Your weeping about our previous encounters tells readers you are a sore loser.I will continue to do the job i have been doing on you guys.Scaremongers like you naturally think this debate was not to your taste,because it was not about the SDF,and its chairman.But it is strange that somebody groping in darkness like you will keep talking about a party he knows little about. Hear you,"I have always tried not to comment on the reason behind the creation of the SDF ,because I cannot find any coherent information.All my research so far has yielded conflicting accounts".You are give the impression that people bar you from talking about Fru Ndi,but you are the same guy who tells the world that Fru Ndi is that type of leader who would not betray his followers.All of you are suffering from intellectual dishonesty.

Kumbaboy,
Tekum Mbeng understood me,and immediately went into hiding.You are so confused that yo start talking about a stranger taking Fame Ndongo to be part of the opposition.If a stranger has to ponder over this sentence,he will first go back to where the debate started ,and avail himself of the content,and know that you undermine the opposition in Zimbabwe ,while criticising that in Cameroon.I did not defend the opposition in Cameroon as you are shamelessly trying to parrot here.You don`t want the opposition in Zimbabwe to oppose that dictator ,but you blame the Ndam Njoyas for not doing anything to shock Biya.This intellectually dishonesty.
For those who just got up from slumber ,and jumped into the debate,the question is not mocking Kumbaboy for blasting the opposition.It is his right to do so,but making a mockery of the efforts of the opposition in another country ,then pretending to criticise that of Cameroon will never be accepted by any rightminded person.The debate here was not whether the opposition in Cameroon was a big failure or not.So those who like sitting on the fence should continue their hide ,and seek game.

tayong

Watesih
"....but making a mockery of the efforts of the opposition in another country ,then pretending to criticise that of Cameroon will never be accepted by any rightminded person...." (Watesih)

To answer you ;those same "rightminded persons" better grasp the facts of an issue before attempting to defend the unknown.Maybe those same"rightminded persons" have a lesson to teach Nelson Mandela ,Samuel Nujoma etc for backing Mugabe.

Mr Watesih, the Zimbabwe political imbroglio isnt similar to Cameroons for your information.Ask yourselve why no matter what happens there's always an implicit deal between the government of Zimbabwe and countries in the region that if Mugabe runs a somewhat better process, he always gets a clean bill of health?

Then talking about opposition do you call western mouthpieces like Ndira et co opposition in the real sense of the word? Has it just got done on the West that Zimbabwe needs democracy? Did they have to wait on the farmland issue to see how dictatorial Mugabe is? Im afriad you dont grasp the complexities of the Zimbabwe debacle.

Mr man, no one condones the attrocities of Mugabe but those "rightminded persons" should ask why even opposition leaders like Mr Tsvangirai never get the endorsement of any African leader even the most democraticaly elected like Ghana,South Africa, etc etc? I bet you , you dont grasp what obtains in Zimbabwe.Find out!

Kumbaboy

Simplice,
I cordially invite you to join Tayong and state what you believe in. Do not appoint yourself moderator or attempt to sit on a fence. What does Simplice stand for?

Watesih,
You are yet to justify your allegation that Fame Ndongo "killed" students at UB as an intelligent man, as demanded by Tekum Mbeng. To date, your rambling lacks focus and philosophy.

For the record, Kumbaboy never mocked the Opposition in Zimbabwe - he cited the seeming philosophy of the nationalist government of Mugabe and his fellow veterans of the bush war vis-à-vis failure of the Lancaster House Agreement. Kumbaboy also pointed out the wrongs of the Mugabe regime such as sending troops to Matabeleland to crush Ndebele resistance and the recent beating of Opposition Leader Morgan Tsvangirai.

The economic crisis in Zimbabwe is the direct result of sanctions carefully engineered by the UK to crush the Zimbabwe nationalist government. Many people in Zimbabwe and elsewhere know it. It is unacceptable in this century for a powerful nation to use hunger as a tool of foreign policy after having breached an accord.

Faced with Watesih’s criticisms of the Mugabe regime over forced land reforms, Kumbaboy called upon Watesih to offer advice to the Opposition there but drew a blank and torrents of invectives – indicative of an "intelligent" mindset.

In the same sequel, Watesih claimed Rwanda is adopting English Language because English journalists first reported the genocide there but brazenly attributed his false argument to Kumbaboy. That is the Watesih we are dealing with.

simplice

"Simplice,
I cordially invite you to join Tayong and state what you believe in. Do not appoint yourself moderator or attempt to sit on a fence. What does Simplice stand for?" by Kumbaboy
I'm not a moderator and don't wish to be one. I stand for the truth and facts. I'm neither for the SDF,CPDM nor SCNC. I simply ask questions to improve myself. I learn better when I have no side:on the fence.

rexon

Simplice aka vito stands for nothing apart from overt hypocrisy and tribalism. Simplice, you do not ask question, you distort facts and support all Pro-SDF comments and supporters. You want this forum to be a place to criticise Biya and ignore all those helping him masquerading as an opposition. The strategy is to take NFJN over for him to continue the looting. That wont work.

Long live the Southern Cameroonian people.

Tekum Mbeng

Watesih,

Be serious. I asked you a simple question this morning at 8:05 AM and by 2:31 PM, you (Watesih) declares “Tekum Mbeng understood me, and immediately went into hiding”.

Do you understand the meaning of your statement? When are you going to stop making generalizations devoid of facts?

I hereby ask you again to substantiate your accusation that Jacques Fame Ndongo “killed” students at UB. You must have facts to back up your statements. It is unconscionable for an educated mind to make such allegations and justify the meaning to certain instances in street demonstrations.

Tekum Mbeng

Cameroon's controversial Higher Education Minister JF Ndongo backs away from regional balance hypothesis. Kumbaboy, check this:

http://www.dibussi.com/2007/10/the-university-.html?cid=87020560#comment-87020560

Watesih

Tayong,
Thanks for coming into the debate through the back door.I will take your line up one at a time.What obtains in Zimbabwe are some mismanaged priorities.The first thing is that the West failed to respect its own duty towards the redistribution of fertile lands colonialists kept for themselves.The funding was cut off due to their own exigences,be they domestic ,or human rights abuses in Zimbabwe.
The second point is that every African must have supported Mugabe initially ,when they heard he was seizing lands from colonialists to redistribute to people Zimbabweans.But several years after that ,the only news that comes out of Zimbabwe is hunger.Of course as Africans we will love to catch up ,by asserting our identity the way Mugabe did.The truth is that he mismanaged the whole thing,and we Africans have to start contributing food to send to his country.
What is strange is that somebody like Kumbaboy gives mixed messages.He says the shelves in shops are not completely empty,
but at the same time he is excited that African countries have been contributing food to the hungry people of Zimbabwe.
Tayong,the gibberish you guys toss around about decolonisation is a laughable piece of publicity.Decolonisation is both physical, and mental.When you get rid of the physical preence of the coloniser,and yet plung yourself into mental castration of your people,you are worst than the coloniser.You cannot fight to rid your land of subjugation,humiliation,and dispossession, only to grow into a disdainful perpatrator of these ills on your people.The colonialists are no longer there on the farms ,yet we accuse the West for using food as a weapon against Mugabe,while at the same time celebrating the fact that African countries have been sending food to the hungry in Zimbabwe.What we should know about Mugabe is that a consummate hero,may be a consummate idiot.Mugabe refuses to dance on a string held by those big shots in the West,but he shows no difference when it comes to dealing with his people.He has been stoking the fire of insular nationalism to cover his crimes against his people.Today instead of completing the liberation struggle in a level headed way ,he hangs on to aggregated factors.We all know Zimbabweans will benefit from these lands in a long time to come,and that will be under new leaders,but we cannot close our eyes to Mugabe`s human rights abuses ,because people have to enjoy in the future.You should learn from today that no head of state will overtly entertain links with an opposition leader to the detriment of the Head of state
for reasons you best know.Why would you want them to line up with Tsvangiria in the open?

Kumbaboy,
It`s good to see you run out of ideas ,and want to think from T. Mbeng`s head.But I`m teaching both of you today,that every official bears responsibility for the atrocities committed by his surbordinates.
When soldiers murdered nine people in Bepanda,you did not see the names of the soldiers published anywhere,but we say it is Biya who murdered them.I`m teaching you again that in the West officials quickly take responsibility ,and resign.The killings in UB came about as a result of Fame Ndongo`s imposition of a fake list on our students.He will one day have to bear responsibility for this killings.He is therefore the public face in these murders.
You are begenning not only to be intellectual dishonest,but a liar.You say you never mocked the opposition in Zimbabwe.
Here is where you undermined it," The people of Zimbabwe elected him,and he has called for elections in March 2008.Perhaps Watesih can offer a strategy to the leader of the opposition".You pointed out the wrong of the Mugabe regime,and nevere mentioned anything about the beating of Morgan Tsvangiria.You were distracting us with his wars abroad.Our concern is with the war he unleashes against his people at home.

T.Mbeng,
I have answere you question clearly,that every leader bears the crimes committed by his surbordinates.Posterity will say Biya was responsible for the crises in Cameroon,not that Ondo Ndong was responsible.You never give details when it comes to leaders ,because their crimes are collective,and carried out by their surbordinates.Hope you can understand now in simple terms.You said i mixed up facts like an illiterate,and i asked you to separate these facts.Readers are waiting. Over to you! I also want you to repeat to everyone`s hearing that orders to murder students in Buea were the handiwork of some unscrupulous police officials,and not orers from Yaounde.

simplice

Watesih, your exposé is wonderful. Just wonderful. Waiting for the antagonistic side.

Rexon,to nail you on the cross you're preparing for me, I have one question to ask of you:have you ever criticised Ma Mary, Paa Ngembus, Mr Nje and Mk the Southern?. By never doing so, you simply proclaim them as infallible. Is this not an example of "aka vito"?.As for me, I critice everybody on this forum;I have no friends, no ideological enemies;I love facts and truth.

simplice

Tekum Mbeng, read the recent updated by the post headed:"After the B'da Killings". There you'll find the DO,Governor and head of GMI apologising for the killings. We all know they didn't order the chaos, but they're politically responsible. Compare it with that of Buea(UB Medical School Crisis) and you'll understand Watesih has an edge over you in the above debate.

tayong

Watesih
Mr man you dont need to be large-mouthed to make a single point.Its kiddy doing that.

Then you say this...."You should learn from today that no head of state will overtly entertain links with an opposition leader to the detriment of the Head of state
for reasons you best know.Why would you want them to line up with Tsvangiria in the open...."

You see whay I say you dont master the ramifications of the Zimbabwe delima.
Mugabe has been a dictator and always has been.Did you and the west just suddenly discover him from the Tura Bura Mountains?
Be informed that Mugabe is backed not just by African leaders but anyone that resists western racially biased stances vis-a-vis the rest of the World.

1.Zimbabwe currently serves on the Executive Board of the World Food Program, a vote that was stiffly resisted by the USA and UK but backed by Africa, Asia and L.America.UK resistance to her elections was defeated hands down.

2.Zimbabwe was elected to the Executive Board of the U.N. Children's Fund for a three-year term beginning in 2008 despite the fact that, according to UNICEF itself, one in four children in Zimbabwe are orphans. Again America and UK were defeated

3.Zimbabwe was elected to the Governing Council of the United Nations Human Settlements Program (UN-HABITAT) for a term expiring in 2010 despite the government's Operation Murambatsvina, which demolished informal housing and markets and rendered 700,000 urban Zimbabweans homeless or unemployed. And American and UK opposition was flogged etc etc

The ability of Zimbabwe to routinely be elected to such privileged positions in the U.N. is illustrative of the resistance to Western racially biased prejudices .My question remains to you and your western surrogates , has it just got done on you that Mugabe is a dictator?

The commonwealth turns into factions when the Zimbabwe pops up.Do you know why? Africa and Asia backs Mugabe? Go lecture them on democracy and autocracy!

UK is ready to frown at Isreal should they attempt to use Economic sanctions on Palestine yet the former are quick to use the same tool and even breach an accord between the latter and former for racially biased motives.

And furthermore, is that the only country where dictators rule with impunity in Africa? Why single out Mugabe while rubbing shoulders with his ilks elsewhere? Mr man we dont need to be political bedfellows or accolades for you to accept the obvious.

Scores of human lives are going up in flames in Sudan while the same crucifiers of Mugabe pipe-off oil in Sudan and allow a murderer to run riot with ethnic cleansing in Darfur only to turn around and hypocritically try to sympathise with the suffering Zimbabweans. Democracy indeed! Yet Watesih would want to educate us of how we should liberate ourselves from colonial shackes.

Keep those lectures for the gallery

Fon

Tayong,
I think you have completely missed the debate. The issue at stake is whether Mugabe is responsible for suffering Zimbabweans or not. Watesih is not out to exonerate the west as you want to put it. Therefore your analysis and concern:"My question remains to you and your western surrogates , has it just got done on you that Mugabe is a dictator?", are irrelevant to the debate.

tayong

Fon
If you want to bail your man dont sink him before bailing Sir.Did you read what I wrote or simply jumped to bail your accolade before discovering you're digging the ground under his feet?

Fon read, please read first! This isn't SDF talk that you simply jump to take sides blindly.Mugabe is a tyrant not much less than Biya, Bongo,Idris,Obeang,etc etc.

Western condemnation of Mugabe with implicit vindication and dining with his likes is condemnable forthright .Fon,the sufferings of Zimbabweans due to Mugabe's misrule surpasses Darfur genocide with the same West standing aloof right?

Sometimes it beats my imagination how party politics and loyalty clouds even common sense and rational thinking.Fon I would advise you not to wake up from sleep and respond to anything opposite to that of your team mates.This isnt SDF talk here.

Read and understand the issues before making a point.

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