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Friday, 30 January 2009

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UnitedstatesofAfrica

Religion has destroyed Africa. It has permeated into our minds and rendered us powerless. Instead of taking pragmatic steps to change our lives, we adhere to the dogma of ancient scripts form foreign lands and sit quiet. We sit cross-legged and say that God will come down from heaven and help us. Newsflash, God doesn't live in Africa. In you want something done, you need to get up and do it yourself.

Fr. Nkea, why don't you write a book about how your fellow catholic men of god walk around chasing young girls or how catholic priests have a knack for raping young boys? give me a break!

UNBELIEVER

WHY SHOULD WE PLACE CHRIST AT THE TOP AND SUMMIT OF THE HUMAN RACE?

by Robert Ingersoll
Was he kinder, more forgiving, more self-sacrificing than Buddha? Was he wiser, did he meet death with more perfect calmness, than Socrates? Was he more patient, more charitable, than Epictetus? Was he a greater philosopher, a deeper thinker, than Epicurus? In what respect was he the superior of Zoroaster? Was he gentler than Lao-tsze, more universal than Confucius? Were his ideas of human rights and duties superior to those of Zeno? Did he express grander truths than Cicero? Was his mind subtler than Spinoza's? Was his brain equal to Kepler's or Newton's? Was he grander in death -- a sublimer martyr than Bruno? Was he in intelligence, in the force and beauty of expression, in breadth and scope of thought, in wealth of illustration, in aptness of comparison, in knowledge of the human brain and heart, of all passions, hopes and fears, the equal of Shakespeare, the greatest of the human race?

If Christ was in fact God, he knew all the future. Before him like a panorama moved the history yet to be. He knew how his words would be interpreted. He knew what crimes, what horrors, what infamies, would be committed in his name. He knew that the hungry flames of persecution would climb around the limbs of countless martyrs. He knew that; thousands and thousands of brave men and women would languish in dungeons in darkness, filled with pain. He knew that his church would invent and use instruments of torture; that his followers would appeal to whip and fagot, to chain and rack. He saw the horizon of the future lurid with the flames of the auto da fe. He knew what creeds would spring like poisonous fungi from every text. He saw the ignorant sects waging war against each other. He saw thousands of men, under the orders of priests, building prisons for their fellow-men. He saw thousands of scaffolds dripping with the best and bravest blood. He saw his followers using the instruments of pain. He heard the groans -- saw the faces white with agony. He heard the shrieks and sobs and cries of all the moaning, martyred multitudes. He knew that commentaries would be written on his words with swords, to be read by the light of fagots. He knew that the Inquisition would be born of the teachings attributed to him.

He saw the interpolations and falsehoods that hypocrisy would write and tell. He saw all wars that would he waged, and he knew that above these fields of death, these dungeons, these rackings, these burnings, these executions, for a thousand years would float the dripping banner of the cross.

He knew that hypocrisy would be robed and crowned -- that cruelty and credulity would rule the world; knew that liberty would perish from the earth; knew that popes and kings in his name would enslave the souls and bodies of men; knew that they would persecute and destroy the discoverers, thinkers and inventors; knew that his church would extinguish reason's holy light and leave the world without a star.

He saw his disciples extinguishing the eyes of men, flaying them alive, cutting out their tongues, searching for all the nerves of pain.

He knew that in his name his followers would trade in human flesh; that cradles would be robbed and women's breasts unbabed for gold.

And yet he died with voiceless lips.

Why did he fail to speak? Why did he not tell his disciples, and through them the world: "You shall not burn, imprison and torture in my name. You shall not persecute your fellow-men."

Why did he not plainly say: "I am the Son of God," or, "I am God"? Why did he not explain the Trinity? Why did he not tell the mode of baptism that was pleasing to him? Why did he not write a creed? Why did he not break the chains of slaves? Why did he not say that the Old Testament was or was not the inspired word of God? Why did he not write the New Testament himself? Why did he leave his words to ignorance, hypocrisy and chance? Why did he not say something positive, definite and satisfactory about another world? Why did he not turn the tear-stained hope of heaven into the glad knowledge of another life? Why did he not tell us something of the rights of man, of the liberty of hand and brain?

Why did he go dumbly to his death, leaving the world to misery and to doubt?

I will tell you why. He was a man, and did not know.
MORE PAIN FOR YOUR BELIEVERS--

Reex, Flames

Well Unbeliever, from your borrowed article, you prove Christ was a man - that is true.

Nobody contests the fact. What Christians say is: Christ both God and Man. So you have to prove he was Man only and not God. And If you are proving he was not God, then by implication you are implying there is at least a GOD and Christ was not Him.

Since I can also draw from your arguments that you are atheist, then the question should first be: Is there a God? This means you have to prove the notion of God - is it valid or not. That I can tell you you can't offer a proof because with current scientific knowledge you cannot prove or disprove the existence of God.

In fact, this ties into to 3 fundamental questions:

1)What is the origin of all things and sets the universe and its planetary bodies to observe and respect laws of physics?
2)What is life and its purpose?
3)What comes after the life or what happens to the intangible life as it is extinguished?

If you can prove that an un-caused Cause, non-produced Force, non-created Creation exists and is responsible, then you would have proven God is this Force or Being.

Otherwise, you may be forced to claim everything (humans and non-living objects) is eternal(or unlimited energy or grand consciousness) that is neither created nor destroyed.

Implications: death is just an end of a previous cycle coinciding with birth (start of a new cycle) and progressing according the laws of nature(who created these laws?) and processed through the transformation of energy(a transformation is a rule or set of rules and who created these rules? Once again a recursion). Simply the explanations will revolve about a of ring clarifications - no starting points nor end points except with instant markings of birth or creation and death or destruction.

Using scientific wisdom, all you can do is a recursive determination of what created what, even up to the atomic and sub-atomic level and you will not still answer the question: What created the basic elements?

Was the 'What' spontaneously existing or some other process created it?

If a process was responsible, then which process and what created the process?

Else, a spontaneous existence shall imply the process had always been, still exists and shall always exist and it is therefore God.

To be continued...

UNBELIEVER

Speculation Brother Reex, Flames and your speculation is as good as any other, but it is good speculation that could be the basis of a sound and meaningful life. Use of the word speculation is not meant to be derogatory, except to indicate that it is unprovable. It could be true, but we do not really know. You can believe it; others may believe it with you, but you should not force you speculation on others. Your analysis is better than anything I have seen in the entire Bible. Good job.

The problem with the Bible is that it is an old, mostly irrelevant book with a terrible history of criminal application. It alarms me that a man in the 1890s saw this clearly and people 2009 are still being led by people who use it like a whip and a chain.

Reex, Flames

Well I don't know if I am speculating or not but in the search of finding the end of the rabbit hole, I may defend that I am not speculating. Or am I?

Speculation as defined by the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary is: the act of forming opinions about what has happened or what might happen without knowing all the facts

If it holds true that I a am speculating, then you are also speculating because you don't know all the facts to disprove a person who believes in God.

Let us not forget there are many things we take in life for granted without proving them firsthand before their acceptance. For example, we use laws of mathematics everyday without a hindsight of their proofs e.g. 1 + 1 = 2. How many people take that for granted since educated childhood and establish that as truth? Of course, 1 +1 = 2 has been proven but it relies on axioms - believed but not proven.

This has led to the conclusion in the scientific world that without reasonable doubt we shall always live in a world always bound with some uncertainty and not all problems are solvable - Please read on non-finite machines.

It should now be noted that theology fills in the void for the moment where the philosophies\ideas cannot be explained, in the remain a mysteries or unproven(I personally think they will never be solved by our current means because even the grassroots of maths depend on axioms and we do not know the origin of things).

Concerning the bible, I may find your accusations quite harsh. I believe most of what is written in the bible applies to current society although in older context. Applying the bible literally in current shall be a foolish move because it is neither a historical nor political nor law nor scientific book. It is book that was written with a religious intention in mind and there lies its domain of operation.

The major problem lies in its interpretation by its readers and not its contents. This is analogical to societal norms and laws that have been established in legal systems wordwide but keep on being reinterpreted/revised because as it appears, no volumes of laws written by humans can entirely cover all spheres of their existence. Just as modern-day legal frameworks can be abused, same applies to the abuse of the bible or other historical books by malicious or ill-intentioned persons.

Would you therefore prefer the bible to be banned or removed from the society or would you rather enlighten its readers to interpret it in context and above all with the expression of love for all persons?

PS:
Sometimes I get the feeling(may be wrong here) that the accusation of intolerance often leveled at religious followers is also similar to the intolerance towards them by their accusers. By stating Christians are forcing the speculative idea of No-God on non-believers, the accusers may be simultaneously ironically also forcing their 'unbelief' on others. This unbelief in a sense is a belief system too, except that it refutes the religious mindset.

As a conclusion, we all believe (religiously or atheistically) and what matters is just a respect for opposite opinions - because at the end of the day everything is relative and none is absolute (the latter statement is also belief system on its own)

Reex, Flames

Erratum:

Instead of: ... By stating Christians are forcing the speculative idea of No-God on non-believers, the accusers may be simultaneously ironically also forcing their 'unbelief' on others.

it should be: ... By stating Christians are forcing the speculative idea of God on non-believers, the accusers may be simultaneously ironically also forcing their 'unbelief' on others.

UNBELIEVER

Forcing the belief of "unbelief" on you? God forbid (LOL).

Only you guys appear to have the mandate to change people to your point of view, and there is a history of using force. It is written into your pact, probably by somebody who came after Jesus.

I pulled up that article, because of the wonderful way in which Ingersoll expressed certain thoughts 100 years ago. I am alarmed at the way in which religious literalists hold more sway today than then.

Proving or disproving God is a fool's errand, but a great intellectual exercise. Being a good person does not require religion, and in many cases can be distorted by religion, especially if people do good not because it is good, but because of fear of reward or punishment.

I have no problem with people believing what they want to believe, as long as they are secure in themselves and comfortable with other perspectives. People have lost jobs, been persecuted, tortured and killed because of belief or lack of it.

You are probably incorrect designating me an atheist, because it denotes a militancy that I do not carry.

Danny Boy

Unbeliever,
thank you so much. I think this Ingersoll guy was inspired too!
Some months ago we had a similar debate on this forum. One wishes one had come across this!
Great stuff!!!

UNBELIEVER

Danny Boy, I hope you had the chance to look at more of his writings. There is an incredible speech he gave to a group of former African slaves in America after the civil war and the abolition of slavery in America. No doubt they invited him because he was an eloquent and fiery defender of the equal rights of all men and women and children even in the hey day of slavery. Very few American Christians of his era were his equal in matters of ethics and morality. There is something weak and even immoral about morality in exchange for a chair in heaven.

Ras Tuge

Black Jah, Black Jah... Our God is BLACK!

EE

As the nation is hijacked nobody coughs but when a preacher pens down his teachings, strong emotions resurface. Cowardice is has many faces they say.

UnitedstatesofAfrica

Rat Tuge the rastafarian weed smoking thug

God is not BLACK and God is not any color. Take your propaganda elsewhere. You are no different from the Eurocentric colonialists who manipulated with religion to maintain their racial supremacy; you are playing the same race-baiting game and it won't work. It is thanks to assholes like you that the world will never desist from baseless religious wars.

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