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« Cameroonians Urged To Protect Wetlands | Main | Government Refutes Poor Human Rights Report »

Friday, 06 February 2009

Comments

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Ted

What a superstitious Rev. we've got there!"He said the agents cause accidents, illnesses, pull wealth from the earth's surface and multiply their membership through initiation." Accidents are as a result of a couple of factors including poor nature of roads, reckless driving, poor level of education, corruption, indiscipline and so on. Illnesses come from our nutrition, living standards and genetical build up. But one question to Olive Ejang Tebug Ngoh, is why didn't you get a word from atleast one member of the so called "the marine and occult kingdoms"?

Danny Boy

This Massock man needs his head examined!

Michaux

Mr Rev,

You have to be very careful about statements like that. You are sowing the seed of division within families and of scapegoating and of suspicion.

No wonder some countries have academic restrictions on leaders of churches. An educated man cannot utter such unsustainable assertions. At least a Master's degree in Theology is needed in order to be given a license to speak on matters of religion in at a public forum. A degree with a curriculum partly sanctioned by the government wit core courses on psychology and social cohesion.

In a real country, he will have to be more careful about what he says as "an opinion leader" or at least someone on whom one or two rely for guidance.

It is not the first time with this particular pastor.

The Post, if your credibility continues to rely on opinions like those of this guy... I am afraid about your future as a leading paper in the public square in Cameroon. Sometimes, I cannot afford not to raise questions about your editorial preferences. You are held in high esteem by some of us... we would not want to think otherwise.

Ma Mary

This man is off his rocker. Unfortunately many people still believe this nonsense.

Klemenceau

Those pointing fingers at the man of God might not understand what they are saying or maybe they are ignorant.
It is true his statements can not be verified but it doesn't mean that such things don't happen.
There is witchcraft and superstition in Africa. Some of you have traveled to Europe and now want to pretend that such evils don't occur in Africa.
A couple of months ago my wife and I were at a wedding party. While talking with some guys from the U.S., we discovered that witchcraft also exist in Europe and America. They told us mysterious things about their families and how they escaped to other cities because some members of their families died mysteriously.
One of my students many years ago told the class about an illness she had suffered from for a long time. The doctors could not find the cause of the illness or the cure. Her aunty finally came to hospital and declared that the girl’s grandmother was angry. The said aunty did something in front of the doctors and the girl was instantly healed. I am talking of stories out of Africa.
So you guys should better stop pretending or do some research if you are ignorant.

Shalom

Klemenceau

Watesih

Ma Mary,Danny Boy,Michaux,
This pastor should be encouraged to continue speaking out against some of the eerie things that actually happen in our society.There should be a clean break from the past between pretence and reality.That rush to suppress anything that points to the practice of necromancy should be revised.Our societies for long have been led by people involved in sordid mystical practices.Young people have grown up,and have been forced into entities that govern their existence.This does not only exist in Africa.In France for instance,it is a tradition over the centuries that people are admitted to the top professional schools like ENA depending on where they fall in the occultic world.There the competition is mainly between the Free masons and Rosicruceans.In Cameroon if you want to be accede to certain functions you must also join these entities.If you want to hold sway over your people as a leader,you have to be initiated into these groups.Little wonder our own President gave away 7 billion to his French Rosicrcean master.All the numerous scenes of trances that have caught the school milieu in Cameroon cannot be said to be out of some medical defficiencies.These are well orchestrated practices to embezzle the future of young people.Three months ago,one school leader involved in burying emulets in the school campus that let to trances was caught redhanded and brought to book.We should be thankful that Pastor Massock has finally identified the source of these trances and is also prescribing some solutions."Only a fool will go to sleep with his house on fire".The late Rev.Hebga was a renowned man of God,and he used his powers publicly to chase demons holdup in people`s bodies.These people were not born with demons.The simple fact that we have Pastors is because we know the world is full of evil,and therefore count on them to fight this evil.They have most of the times done so in silence,but we should be ready to allow them reason aloud once in a while.

Michaux

Watesih,

The existence or non existence of evil in the society is not the issue here. We must not confound issues.

We are worried about the social implications of his statements and actions. It leads to scapegoatism, suspicions and counter-suspicions within the society over phenomena that cannot be proven.

How many people have been stoned to death, attacked or persecuted by a crowd simply out of sheer suspicion that they are witches and wizards?

Pastor Massock's public statements about things that cannot be proven pave the way for other faces and forms of evil in society like hatred and suspicion.

Let him speak to his followers behind close doors. He will never hear me rant about it.

I regret the publication of such statements but the post, especially with no further prove of thorough journalistic investigation or alternate views.

KLEMENCEAU,

Ignorance also knows it way out of Africa... so does its sibling "Superstition".
We not have witch doctors in America, from Africa especially. We also have spiritual healers and visioneers ...

I personally do not believe in them or in their power over me...

You are free to believe in them and consult them. But basic social cohesion principles requires that you do not use your 'practices and faith' to create fear and suspicion in the society in which I also live.

Radicalbrother

This pastor sounds like a herbalist.Things like this should be based on verifiable facts rather than personal imagination and assumptions.
I wonder why the Post should publish articles like this.This is religious bigotry of the first order.This young man is seeking for cheap popularity. Loobk at his jaws.He might have eatedn unripe paw paw. He deserves a size 45 bras to support them

Klemenceau

Michaux knowing that something exist and believing in its power over you are two different things. I know these things exist but I never consult them neither do I believe in their powers over me.
The point here is you guys want the post to stop posting such news items. I think what the post is doing is good because it helps to create awareness. Cameroonians and Africans should be made to know the work of the devil in these latter days. The devil is at work and we must not be ignorant.
Michaux if I understood you well, you are insinuating that the witch doctors, visionaries etc in Europe and America are from Africa. If that's what you meant, I will say you got it all wrong. Watesih has given some examples to proof you wrong.
In my opinion, the westerners don't do crude witchcraft the way Africans do.
If Rev. Masock is speaking from God, then God has a purpose for revealing these things to him. Cameroonians need come out of the fangs of the devil and only through men of God ( I don’t mean fake men of God) can this happen.
Shalom
Klemenceau

tayong

Lets put this issue into its rightful context.I dont see how this "...leads to scapegoatism, suspicions and counter-suspicions within the society...." as intimated above.As long as no name calling has been involved I dont think the line has been crossed.

Though I may not agree with the format the preacher is using to extend his message , I think if the ills of the society can be shouted on even from rooftops the better the society will be. These ills need to be exposed. Whether you believe in their existence or not, that doesnt stop them from happening in the society every now and then.

I hope someone wont come here to ask the pastor to stop talking about marital unfaithfulness because it will cause men to start suspecting their wives and therefore, a disturbance to social cohesion.

In a nutshell the preacher hasnt crossed the line.

DR TAN OF CAMEROON


SECRETS OF THE DARK KINGDOM.

THE BIBLE SAYS WE SHOULD HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE KINGDOM OF DARKNESS BUT RATHER EXPOSE THEM.
WE WRESTLE NOT AGAINST FLESH, BUT POWERS, PRINCIPALITIES AND SPIRIYUAL WICKEDNESS IN HIGH PLACES.
SPIRITUIAL THINGS ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED.
WITCH CRAFT WAS A LEGAL PROBLEM IN EUROPE AND AMERICA , UNTILL RECENTLY, BECAUSE [ PHYSICAL EVIDENCES WERE NOT AVAILABLE]. PHYSICAL DISCERNMENT. THE COURTS MAKE JUDGEMENTS BASED ON EVIDENCES.
WAR HAS ARISEN OVER , ACCUSATIONS OF WITCHCRAFT AND SO CALLED BLACK MAGIC. FAMILIES HAVE BEEN DIVIDED OVER THESE ISSUES. NEED FOR CAUTION IN PUBLIC DECLARATIONS AND PRACTICE.
INSTANCES ABOUND WHEN JESUS AND OR HIS DISCIPLES HAD TO SEND PEOPLE OUT OF HOUSES , BEFORE THEY COULD PRAY FOR THE SICK OR THE DEAD, BECAUSE OF UNBELIEVE.
SECRET SOCIETIES , ARE MORE AWARE OF THE SPIRITUAL KINGDOM OF DARKNESS. THE PHYSICAL WORLD IS CONTROLLED FROM THE SPIRITUAL.
EXORCISM HAS BEEN PRACTICED IN THE OPEN IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH , FOR A LONG TIME NOW. IT IS REAL.
I HAD A SITUATION LIKE THIS , IN A UNIVERSITY ENVIRONMENT CHURCH IN WESTERN CAMERRON. A PHYSICIAN ,S DAUGTHER ACUSED OF KILLING THE FATHER , THROUGH MARRINE SPIRIT INVOLVEMENT. .
I TOLD THE ACCUSERA WE COULD NOT PROOF IT. WE COULD NOT ALSO FORCEFULLY PRAY OR MINISTER TO HER , AGAINST HER WILL. IS THERE A MARRINE KINGDOM, YES, ADULTS WHO HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN IT SAY SO, BESIDES OTHER EVIDENCES.
HOW DO I APPROACH THIS ISSUE.
1 TALK LESS ABOUT IT, SO THAT YOU DONOT GLORIFY THE DEVIL INSTEAD.
2 DEAL WITH DIVINE REVELATIONS AS REVELATIONS. MOST THINGS GOD TELLS MINISTERS, IS NOT FOR THEM TO SHARE WITH PEOPLE , BUT FOR THEM TO PRAY OR FAST , SO THAT GOD WILL WORK, TO THE GLORY OF GOD.
3 IF THOSE , INVOLVED IN MARINE SPIRIT ACTIVITIES WANT TO COME OUT, FINE, FOR THEM TO BE HELPED, AND POSSIBLY QUIET PRAYERS AND MINISTRY.
4 THIS IS WHAT ALSO MAKE MINISTRY , DEPRESSING AT TIMES, THE SPIRITUAL PERSON REMAINS ALONE WITH HIS KNOWLEDGE , TO OPERATE WITH BELIEVERS AND GOD.
5 A PASTOR[MINISTER] CAN BE SUED FOR DEFAMATION ON AN ACCUSED.
5 UNDER CLINICAL PASTORAL EDUCATION, /PASTORAL COUNSELLING, CERTAIN ETHICAL CONDITIONS OF PRACTICE MOST BE OBSERVED. YOU COULD BE AT THE WRONG JUST TALKING TO THE PRESS OVER CERTAIN ISSUES.
THERE IS A KINGDOM OF GOD AND THE KINGDOM OF DARKNESS.
THERE ARE SECRET SOCIETIES THAT MAKE US KNOW THAT THEY ARE DEVIL WORSHIPERS.[U.S.A]
THERE ARE WITCHES /WIZARDS COVENTS HERE IN THE USA. WITCHCRAFT EXIST.
ONLY A FOOL SAYS THERE IS NO GOD ACORDING TO THE BIBLE.
REV, CONTINUE, BUT TREAD WITH CARE, ONLY FOOLS THREAD WERE SAINST DREAD.
YOU MOST ALSO BE PERSECUTED, IT,S KINDOM AGAINST KINGDOM
DR THOMPSON NTUBA

Klemenceau

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=11921090&ch=4226713&src=news

Those who claim witchcraft exist only in Africa or is practised only by blacks in Europe should open the lin above and get the news of how whites are turning to ancient witchcraft to look for water amidst drought.

Shalom
Klemenceau

Ted

DR TAN OF CAMEROON,
I'm a regular news reader of the "postnews online" and comments posted thereon but it's so sad i can't read your comments which i believe are full of insight and wisdom. The reason is just because they're wrtten in uppercase or capital letters. I'm sure i'm not alone here facing this difficulty with your comments. The reason you comment in this forum is because you have beautiful ideas that you want to share with others. But if you choose to comment in capital letters which make reading difficult, you drive readers away from your comments. Then, what is the point in commenting? When we read a piece of news item, we may comment on it and may also comment on some ideas raised by other commentators. What you haven't yet noticed is that no commentator in this forum has ever commented on those insightful ideas of your in your comments (i mean commenting on your ideas, not asking you to change writing format); which clearly indicates that nobody reads them because of their uppercase format. So, would you please correct this flaw and get yourself fully involved in this very civil and intellectual club; especially at this very critical moment in our society where we need ideas from all of you to kick start our society from where it got stalled.

Elizabeth Maimo

The Reverend puts it too plainly, but I'm afraid he's not very far from the truth. Evil does exist among us, some of us just don't see it, it's left for us to acknowledge and try to understand those who do. It's better to take precautions now than be sorry later. A word to the wise: CAUTION!

Watesih

This is exactly the way pastors should preach.They should be allowed into neighbourhoods,where they can preach aloud and let the devil to coy with fear.Do we know why Police cars are stationed in strategic points around the city? It's a means of dissuation for would-be thieves. When pastors confront demons with the word of God,they will go back into the underworld.When Cardinal Tumi preaches about corruption,everybody applauds him for confronting this plague head-on.Nobody says he is scaring Cameroonians by denouncing thieves,or that he is a threat to social cohesion.Everybody is unanimous that there's the kingdom of darkness.But how do we confront this? By talking less about it,or by shying away from it? This is just like handing over the rest of the world to Al-qaeda's holy fighters and allowing them to feed fat their grudge.

besong

I dont see why people are against what the said Pastor said above..i just think those who are against such preachings have never been victims of such practices. Marine spirits are real and are gradually taken our communities hostage..i just believe that just like what the pastor is doing, we all should join in such a campaign to fight such practices, sometimes i really thing that this abroad issue has coused us to forget who we really are and what is happining in our african societies and cameroon in particuler.

Danny Boy

Besong et al,
of what significance is the 11th of February in God's calendar? None whatsoever!
You believe what you want and why not join this spurious Reverend in his marine underworld?
11th of February! Let us wait and see what happens on the 12th and to be generous a week after. If his prophecy does not come good, what actions are the people of Kumba entitled to, in the form of redress? Run him out of turn and torch his ministry?
Wednesday is but a few hours away. I hope somebody reading this in Kumba takes note and is emboldened enough to challenge this fake Pastor when the dust settles and nothing happens. Our kids in Kumba will enjoy their youth day like those all over our national territory and will not be worse for.
Maybe Massock is a blessing that should enable us debunk all this mysticism.
This should be a challenge to the fair-minded.
I rest and I keep my fingers crossed.

DR TAN OF CAMEROON

KINGDOM AGAINST KINGDOM
GALATIANS 5 . 19-20
TALKS OF THE WORKS OF THE FLESH WHICH ARE EVIDENT.
ADULTRY, FORNICATION,UNCLEANESS,LEWDNESS, IDOLATRY,
SORCERY,
HATRED, CONTENTIONS, JEALOUSIES, OUTBURSTS OF WRATH, SELFISH AMBITIONS, DISSENTIONS, HERESIES, ENVY, MURDERS,
DRUNKENNESS, REVELRIES, AND THE LIKE.
ABOVE LOOKS LIKE CAMEROON.
DID YOU SEE SOCERY, DID YOU SEE DRUNKENNESS.
THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN SUFFERS VIOLENCE, THE VIOLENT MOST TAKE IT BY FORCE. INVADE THEIR KINGDOM. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.
A PHYSICIAN /MINISTER INVOLVED IN SIMILAR MINISTRY HERE IN THE U.S.A I DR REBECCA BROWN. [ WWW.HARVESTWARRIORS.COM ].
THAT IS HOW NIGERIANS GOT BACK THEIR COUNTRY. THROUGH PHROPHETIC INTERCESSIONS AND DELIVERANCE.
EPHESIANS 5.7
THEREFORE DONOT BE PARTAKERS WITH THEM
[KINGDOM OF DARKNESS].
VS 11 AND HAVE NO FELLOWSHIP WITH THE UNFRUITFUL WORKS OF DARKNESS, BUT RATHER EXPOSE THEM.
VS 12 SAYS, FOR IT,S SHAMEFUL EVEN TO SPEAK OF THOSE THINGS WHICH ARE DONE BY THEM IN SECRET.
KINGDOM OF DARKNESS IS IN CONTROL OF CAMEROON. IT,S TIME TO FIGHT.
IT,S NOT FOR THE FAINT OF HEART. IT,S NOT FOR THE POOLISHED. WHEN DELIVERANCE HAS COME , YOU CAN COME DO YOUR USAUAL TALKING AND CHILDISHNESS.
ALLUTA CONTINUA.
GRASSIAS.
DR [REV[ THOMPSON AKWO NTUBA MD. Ph.D
PREACHER, PHYSICIAN , POLITICIAN.

Ma Mary

Dr Rev Thompson Akwo Ntuba:

NORMAL PEOPLE DO NOT WRITE INTERNET POSTS IN CAPITAL LETTERS.

ONLY CRAZY PEOPLE CONTINUE TO DO THAT EVEN AFTER IT HAS BEEN POINTED OUT.

YOU ARE NOT CRAZY, ARE YOU?


Ma Mary

People fail to take rational action about their situation because they are paralyzed in the belief that their oppressors possess supernatural powers. Then they turn to religion that asks them to turn the other cheek or whose ministers are in the pay of the same oppressors. The French had to use the guillotine to free themselves from superstition. Since the French insist that Africans must reenact french history, do the fake royalists in our midst have to be subjected to the guillotine too?

Radicalbrother

Dear all,
Nothing is either good or bad. Thinking makes it so.
I have conquered fear and ingnorance and do not need to listen to bigots like the fake reverend above. What does he know about the occult world? Why dabble into things he does not know
The process of proving this fake man of God wrong is simple. He called on people to pray. No one should pray and let's wait and see what will happen come 11th Feb. This is because if people pray and nothing happens on that day, he will claim it is because of the prayers. If people do not pray and nothing happens, he will definitely enter his shell.
I hope this fake man of God did not buy this journalist to write this article in a bid for him to gain some fame
This must be fairy tale

Radicalbrother

DR [REV[ THOMPSON AKWO NTUBA MD. Ph.D
PREACHER, PHYSICIAN , POLITICIAN.

I hope you can defend all these titles for it appears you do not know how to use the computer.
Has your computer been programmed so that all your writings appear in capital letters and you are finding it rather difficult to turn back to small letters by someone? Hope you are not a Native Doctor
YOU WILL BE JUDGED BY THE WEIGHT OF YOUR ARGUMENTS AND NOT BY TITLES SIR.

akaranjoh

klemenceau and radicalbrother i have this to tell you.the axioms of mechanics have no proofs but are accepted because deductions made from them aggree with observation.if you have ever noticed someone play racketball(a virtuality game),you will think that he is drunk or mad .why because the person exist in two realms(he is immersed in a virtuality cyberspace and the real world where you stand to observe him)and you judge him base on the real material world only.how foolish!!!massock is a guru in esoterism and you spiritual dummies are not.he has access into other dimensions and speak of what he sees and you rant foly at him.the book of JUDE is very correct about fools:ignorant men speak abusively at things they do not understand .the carnal man do and will never understand the things of the spirit because they are spiritually discerned.i read about one of you saying he does not believe in things like.how stupid!your unbelieve does no negate the existence of what you refuse to believe.go tell a developing chick in an egg shell that there is another world full of trees ,rivers planes people and see the expression on its face.why because it can't understand it by using knowledge gained from its 'shell 'world.spiritual blindness is the demise of this world.existence is divide into 3 esoteric planes vis the carnal plane occupied by man and termed the goss material universer,the plane of darkness rule by the devils and his decieved brood then the plane of light where God exists.the realms of light and darkness competes for men and when one understands the atonning death of christ and its mystical significane he ascends mysteriously to the realm of light and satan has no hold on him.he can then decodes satan show him how foolish he is.you guys are a model for the lost world grovelling in darkness yet are cheap meat for satan and his cohorts and refuse to appripriate the death of Jesus in you life here on earth and will eternally doomed.i challenge you guys to surrender to christ if you have guts .the whole world is in ignorance and when God raise the likes of massock you quickly come out to display your ignorance?the post have esoteric concious men and mind you that education does not make men wise,.i have studied mystism and have experience things i can mention here because they are too difficult to understand by 'men'.i don't know why christianity is the only domain where a college algebar student struggling euclidean geometry can wailk to a an eminent don in quantumm field theory and tell him how to construct the Tolman IV metric.
surrender to christ and beg for his wisdom or wallow as spiritual liliputians and be cast into sheol
shallom.

Radicalbrother

Akaranjoh/ Massock
You are not the only one who has an idea about esoteric wisdom. I do believe both in esoteric and exoteric wisdom as a vital tool in the evolution of humanity so you can not claim that only you alone have the knowledge.
I am currently doing research work on AMORC, ECKANKAR,GRAIL MESSAGE etc which are at the fore front of mystism
I now see where you have fallen short of knowledge. You only belief in faith as the only way that you can perceive God where as there is rationalism and epiricism you shy away
Can yo put someone in a trance or can yo simply go on astral travel so that people see you far off from where you are.
If you think you are viable or spiritually equiped , let us test our level of spituality i will subject you to strange vibrations that the name of Jesus will not help you out and you may only find yourself at a native doctor where you will be deceived the more

CountryFowl

Whilst we are still going in a loop over things which are non-verifiable and inconsequential to our pursuit of freedom, happiness and peace, here are some news issues which should provoke your thoughts.
These are the results of our belief systems, and until we are ready to investigate tangible phenomena to understand and free the mind from its superstitious beliefs and illusions we will remain the laughing stock of the world and people whom the world will consistently seek to colonize, moralize and civilize.

Here we go
----------
Nigerian police hold 'robber' goat

Many Nigerians believe that magicians can turn themselves into goats
Police in Nigeria are holding a goat handed to them by a vigilante group, which said it was a car thief who had used witchcraft to change shape.
A police spokesman in Kwara State has been quoted as saying that the "armed robbery suspect" would remain in custody until investigations were over.
link is here at the BBC news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7846822.stm


Living in fear: Tanzania's albinos
Twenty-five people with albinism have been murdered in Tanzania since March, a BBC investigation has found.
Albinos are targeted for body parts that are used in witchcraft, and killings continue despite government efforts to stamp out the grisly practice, the BBC's Karen Allen says.

link is also here at the BBC news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7518049.stm

Radicalbrother

Country fowl,
I now see that you have joint the long band of bigots in this forum.
Let me pause here to remind you that I studied in Nigeria for 10 years precisely in the Yoruba land where Kwara state cited above is found. I have seen a goat in Nigeria eating a sheet of zinc and later on fought with a dog over a piece of bone. This was not witchcraft. The goat was hungry. I later on discovered that salt was dried on the zinc.
A state Governor still in Nigeria presented and end of year speech revealing that a certain caterpillar that dug a road was later on carried away by the wind and wanted people to believe him.
These are lies and cooked up stories we keep on hearing every day. May be you are not aware of the recent one still in Nigeria that a cat turned into a woman after it was knocked down by a bike.
When shall we ever emancipate ourselves from mental slavery. Think of a ghost and you will immediately see one. Think of witchcraft and you will immediately be subjected to strange vibrations to confirm its presence.
There is power in your thougt but the mind is a dangerous thing to waste like that of Massock

CountryFowl

Radical brother,

I think you may have misunderstood entirely what I am trying to put across. I was simply pointing out the results of what a belief system can do to a people.
It is the belief that a person can transform themselves into a goat that lead to this situation.
The other story has to do with Albinos in Tanzania and other parts of East Africa. Their lives are in danger because of belief in witchcraft.
Should they loose their lives because of those belief systems...??

I hope you understand clearly what I am pointing out.

And here once more are my comments. It is not supporting the belief in witchcraft. Rather it states clearly that, everything ought to be investigated.

These are the results of our belief systems, and until we are ready to investigate tangible phenomena to understand and free the mind from its superstitious beliefs and illusions we will remain the laughing stock of the world and people whom the world will consistently seek to colonize, moralize and civilize.

Danny Boy

Hi Folks,
this is an appeal to contributors of this forum in Kumba and environs.
The forum will like to know if there have been any manifestations of the Kingdom of Darkness as predicted by His Most Reverend Massock, come Feb. 11th?
Maybe this is the chance we have been waiting for. Ma Mary(thanks) but do we really need the guillotine to liberate ourselves from mental slavery?
Just a joke. Massock presents us with a chance. Let the fair-minded seize it and educate the dispossessed who seem to find refuge in this pie-in-the-sky theology!
Massock and your acolytes, over to you!

tayong

The story goes of one famous french philosophy Voltaire who like the arrogant others, in order to prove his intellectual prowess made lousy statements against the existence of a Divine being. He predicted that before a century time the bible would seize from circulation and would be a thing for the archives and museums.

Exactly one hundred years his mansion in France today is the French branch's Gideons Bible distribution headquarters. I read similar lousy statements in this forum from members of the so called intelligencia liberation movement. well, well goodluck !!

I would say this. True there are true and false preachers but like someone above said, that doesnt negate the existence of these ills in our society. And to claim that such utterances lead to social instability is bogus.

The Rev though alarmist is his preaching has warned people of the dangers in involving in such practices and cited famous days like 11th February as fertile avenues for the multiplication of such malicious acts.Put it simply thus, he was warning young people to choose their friends wisely.

Just as I said before , had this preacher gone as far as calling names , I for one would have gone after him but this he didnt do so I wonder why the outraged.

Tchoks

Dear commentators,
each and everyone of you has a right to his/her opinion.but if we must trash out socials ills like the afore mentioned by the rev pastor,we need a base,a code of ethics,a mesuring tool.by this i mean,we need to draw from past experiences,various religious principles etc.lets leave the man of GOD to his concience.we learn from our mistakes,in my opinion, he did the right thing in the wrong way.he should have mobilised not only the christian faithfulls but muslims too.we all know that when a river flows through a forest trees must fall,by this i mean there would still be culprits in the initiation process.then after the 11th of febuary, he can make his assertions and tell the cameroonian people his role in the intervention process.lets all fight to built a healthier society.
best regards to you all

CountryFowl

Mr. Tayong,

Here are some quotes from the Chinese Philosopher Lao Zu. This is simply to extend our discussion on this particular topic.
Your position on this issue is respected and this is in no way to persuade you or minimize what you have written in the context of this palaver.

Quotes from Lao Tzu
---------------------
Without stirring abroad, One can know the whole world; Without looking out of the window One can see the way of heaven. The further one goes The less one knows.
Lao Tzu

Man's enemies are not demons, but human beings like himself.
Lao Tzu

To realize that you do not understand is a virtue; Not to realize that you do not understand is a defect.
Lao Tzu

--------------------

How is it related to this palaver that we are discussing here..?

Well, some of those quotes are descriptively appropriate in handling our varying positions and points of view again in the context of this discussion.


--------------------

Now, Have you ever asked yourself what it would have been like in Africa today, had the Chinese or Mongolian invaders reached the central African plains and rain forest thousands of years ago...???

What would have been the influences on our thinking....? How our cultures would have been shaped had the Africans adopted other world religions other than Judeo-Christian belief systems and Islam...??

Have you ever wondered to yourself how it would have been like today, had the Indians also reached the central African rain forest thousands of years ago...??

What would have been the pathway of our culture, our way of thinking and cosmological thoughts regarding the Universe....????

Have you also pondered how it would have been like, had the Nso or Mendangnkwe or Mamfe, Bikom, Bassa or Douala people conquered Europe...??

Have you studied the religious beliefs or thoughts of the Caribbean or places like Brazil, Haiti, Cuba, Barbados, Dominican republic et cetera....??

Did you know that the belief in witchcraft is a direct psychological map and representation of the developmental stages and level of a people's culture and civilization....???
Take a look at European, Japanese, Chinese & Arabic cultures and find the parallel points, when these cultures where steep in such belief systems and also look at the departure points when reason, logic and philosophical thinking took over to understand the movement of religions and belief systems across the world and how it shapes people's belief systems, their cultures et cetera....???

Have you ever bothered to ask, how the Moors and Arabs influenced European thought and religion...??
Or the influence of Eastern Philosophical and religious thought on Judeo-Christian religions....??

Have you studied Judaism or mohammedism or any other religions of the middle east, to see their similarities, origins, influences, cross pollination et cetera....??

Have you studied and traced the evolution of human thought, thinking and the development of our human cultures over the last 4-5-6-7-8 thousands of years.....???

If you have done so, what are your views and understanding in the context of our African thinking...??

If you have not done so, perhaps in your spare time you can make a few research on some of these issues and you may find that your position on this palaver might not be so absolute and categorical.

Can any one of us here, state clearly what exactly is our African cosmological and ontological point of view regarding the Universe...?

What exactly is witchcraft, the etymological roots of that word and when and how it was introduced into the English vocabulary, why and when it was first used to describe traditional African belief systems...?
----------

Radicalbrother

Country fowl, your point is perfectly ok now
Danny Boy, I am having minute by minute commentaries 24/24H about things happening in Kumba.
Two students actually collapsed during the 11th Feb in Kumba for they stood under the sun for long as the authorities came very late. They were rushed to the hospital and enough food given to them and they came back without any complain.This has no relation ship with what this fake man of God is talking about above
This your Rev man must have been a frustrated someone before going to the pastor school

Danny Boy

Mr. Tayong,
the argument is not about the existence of God. Voltaire said man created God and the latest edition of the New Scientist Magazine makes a similar bold statement on it's front cover! You read and believe in your bible and let me read and believe in Newton's Principia or Darwins, " On the origin of species through Natural Selection"
This has got nothing to do with intellingentsia!
Massock is like the Jehovah Witness who said the world will end in 1975! I need not sit here telling you what the consequencies of this failed prophecy had world-wide. As somebody mentioned above, do a little researsch on some of these topics before casting aspersions.
Don't you marvel at the fact wherever you are, we are still able to communicate?
This technology was developed in a lab, not a church. If God has his input, show me!!

tayong

..."Don't you marvel at the fact wherever you are, we are still able to communicate?
This technology was developed in a lab, not a church. If God has his input, show me!!.." Danny boy.

Danny boy. I see you blindly dabbling into some Darwinism and atheism there. Draw the scrolls of your thesis and answer me the following questions:

1.Darwin says complex creatures evolve from more simplistic ancestors naturally over time. In a nutshell, as random genetic mutations occur within an organism's genetic code, the beneficial mutations are preserved because they aid survival -- a process known as "natural selection."

Questions:Where are all the Half-Evolved Dinosaurs?

2.Millions of people are taught that the fossil record furnishes proof of evolution.

Question:
But, where are there fossils of half-evolved dinosaurs or other creatures? I put it into a layman's language. If for instance a man developed from a lower specie say apes or monkeys , when and why did that stop happening? Why dont we see apes and monkeys "evolving" today into lower humans and then maybe finally into real or complete humans?

3.We know in Physics that "The Big Bang theory" is based on solid data and would show that the Universe had a finite beginning in time (about 15 billion years ago) - before that it didn't exist.
Question:
How did everything come out of something that didn't exist?

4. If any of the constants of physics were just a little different, Life would be impossible for many reasons.

Questions:
a)But why do the laws of physics exist?
b)And why are these constants just right for the existence of life?
c)Has someone "monkeyed with the constants of physics" to make life possible?

When you must have finished flipping over your thesis I will come back and show you where "God's inputs is..."

Waiting.....

CountryFowl

Some background information on Darwin from the BBC.
Take note that Darwin was not an atheist. The key to understanding Darwin to see his theories as a foundation upon which we can and should evolve our understanding of the natural world.
Link is here: Charles Darwin
-----
Charles Darwin (1809 - 1882)

Throughout 2009, the BBC is celebrating the life and work of Charles Darwin with a variety of special programmes. Find out more at bbc.co.uk/darwin.


Charles Darwin ©
Darwin was a British scientist who laid the foundations of the theory of evolution and transformed the way we think about the natural world.
Charles Robert Darwin was born on 12 February 1809 in Shrewsbury, Shropshire into a wealthy and well-connected family. His maternal grandfather was china manufacturer Josiah Wedgwood, while his paternal grandfather was Erasmus Darwin, one of the leading intellectuals of 18th century England.

Darwin himself initially planned to follow a medical career, and studied at Edinburgh University but later switched to divinity at Cambridge. In 1831, he joined a five year scientific expedition on the survey ship HMS Beagle.

At this time, most Europeans believed that the world was created by God in seven days as described in the bible. On the voyage, Darwin read Lyell's 'Principles of Geology' which suggested that the fossils found in rocks were actually evidence of animals that had lived many thousands or millions of years ago. Lyell's argument was reinforced in Darwin's own mind by the rich variety of animal life and the geological features he saw during his voyage. The breakthrough in his ideas came in the Galapagos Islands, 500 miles west of South America. Darwin noticed that each island supported its own form of finch which were closely related but differed in important ways.

On his return to England in 1836, Darwin tried to solve the riddles of these observations and the puzzle of how species evolve. Influenced by the ideas of Malthus, he proposed a theory of evolution occurring by the process of natural selection. The animals (or plants) best suited to their environment are more likely to survive and reproduce, passing on the characteristics which helped them survive to their offspring. Gradually, the species changes over time.

Darwin worked on his theory for 20 years. After learning that another naturalist, Alfred Russel Wallace, had developed similar ideas, the two made a joint announcement of their discovery in 1858. In 1859 Darwin published 'On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection'.

The book was extremely controversial, because the logical extension of Darwin's theory was that homo sapiens was simply another form of animal. It made it seem possible that even people might just have evolved - quite possibly from apes - and destroyed the prevailing orthodoxy on how the world was created. Darwin was vehemently attacked, particularly by the Church. However, his ideas soon gained currency and have become the new orthodoxy.

Darwin died on 19 April 1882 and was buried in Westminster Abbey.

Danny Boy

Mr. Tayong,
it seems you know some science, but you might have forgotten of the "all or nothing principle"! Halve-evolved dinosaurs? You must be kidding,nor is Science going to provide you with the missing links of our evolutionary record today. It is a dynamic subject and in years to come that which we cannot explain today will be explained tomorrow.
Just as you will go to Matthew, Mark or Luke, let me take you to the Periodic Table of Elements, the bedrock of our understanding of inorganic matter(Chemistry). Rather than tell you what I know, why not research this i.e the Periodic Table and we can discuss at a future date?
This is Chemical evolution, without which there will not be biological evolution, Creationists seem to miss this.

I am a Student of Science, could call myself a Scientist but would not. That is the the difference between Massock and myself. Humility.
Mr. Tayong the rest of your questions make me laugh. You want us to believe in a creator? If a little boy asked you who created the creator, what would you say?
However you describe your creator, i.e the beginning of time, he/she/it is not better than mine.

CountryFowl

Mr. Tayong,

You may want to read on Darwin. Do not dismiss him so easily,
there is more to the man.
-------------------
Darwin's twin track: 'Evolution and emancipation'
What drove Charles Darwin to his extraordinary ideas on evolution and human origins? Adrian Desmond, with co-author James Moore, argue in a new book that the great scientist had a "sacred cause": the abolition of slavery.

BBC

----------------

"It makes one's blood boil," said Charles Darwin. Not much outraged the gentle recluse, but the horrors of slavery could cost him a night's sleep.
He was thinking of the whipped house boy and the thumbscrews used by old ladies in South America, atrocities he had witnessed on the Beagle voyage.
The screams stayed with him for life, but how much did they influence his life's work?
Today you can still read of Darwin's "eureka" moment when he saw the Galapagos finches.
Alas, his conversion to evolution wasn't so simple, but it was much more interesting. It didn't occur in the Galapagos, but probably on his arrival home.
And new evidence suggests that Darwin's unique approach to evolution - relating all races and species by "common descent" - could have been fostered by his anti-slavery beliefs.

Family feelings

After circumnavigating the globe (1831-6), Darwin settled in London. Here in 1838 he formulated his theory of "natural selection", after which he became increasingly reclusive, particularly following his move to Down village in Kent.
He refrained from publishing a word on evolution until 1858 - not even a brief, priority-grabbing paper, as was his way with other projects. His hesitance is understandable. Evolution was execrable to his Cambridge friends.

One naturalist called it "abominable trash vomited" out by revolutionaries; and radicals did, indeed, deploy a self-sustaining evolution to undermine the creationist miracles on which Anglican power rested.
Darwin's gouty Cambridge professor, Adam Sedgwick, used "contempt, scorn, and ridicule" to trash one "filthy" evolution book in 1844. Darwin, sensitive about his reputation, wisely laid low.
So why devise such a beastly theory in the first place, if it threatened ignominy? Was there some integral moral gain?
Consider another question. Why was Darwin's evolution uniquely defined by common descent, the joining of races and species through shared ancestry? Darwin's common descent image is so obvious today that we forget to question where it came from.

'Man and brother'

Common descent in Darwin's younger day was ubiquitous in anti-slavery tracts. Consider the words of the famous cameo, depicting a kneeling slave asking "Am I Not a Man and a Brother?" That cameo was in fact the brainchild of the pottery-dynasty founder, Josiah Wedgwood, Darwin's grandfather.
New evidence shows how indebted Darwin was to this anti-slavery heritage.

Darwin knew that going into print would have invited derision

Darwin's uncle Jos Wedgwood sold the firm's London showroom, and ploughed the proceeds into an anti-slavery society, and in the 1850s (with American slavery still flourishing) the Wedgwoods continued using labels showing the slave under Britannia's banner, which read "God Hath Made of One Blood All Nations of Men".
The anti-slavery agitator Thomas Clarkson - the man who rode 35,000 miles collecting statistics in the sea ports on the evil trade - was another bankrolled by Josiah Wedgwood.
With a Wedgwood wife and mother, Darwin saw abolition as a "sacred cause" too, and in his culminating work, the Descent of Man (1871), he placed Clarkson at the moral apex of humanity and called slavery a "great sin".
Such family feelings explain why, as a 16-year-old at Edinburgh University in 1826 (in a period often dismissed by historians), Darwin could spend 40 extra-curricular hours with a freed slave from Guyana studying taxidermy and become his "intimate" friend.
And this when many visiting Americans saw any black/white friendship as "revolting".

Torture accounts

Darwin witnessed slavery everywhere in South America. The Beagle's own supply ship on her previous trip had originally been a slaver, and, once sold, it reverted to slaving. While Darwin was on the continent, it was again disgorging chained Africans.
Darwin's journal of the voyage (1845) gives a damning account of the tortures he saw or heard of; but of all the "heart-sickening atrocities", the worst for him were the stories of masters threatening to sell the children of disobedient slaves.

Darwin was appalled at the treatment handed out to slaves


As an outsider, he was "powerless as a child even to remonstrate". But within weeks of the Beagle's return, he developed a science which undercut the slave-master's notions.
Many plantation owners considered slaves a separate species, an animal to be exploited as such. Blacks and whites shared no joint ancestry.

Yet the Darwin-Wedgwood maxim made the slave a "Man and a Brother". Darwin opened his first evolution notebook in 1837, damned slave-holders for their separate species view, then pushed common parentage to the zoological limit.
Since species were only extended races, they too must share an ancestry. He moved from talking of the common "father" of mankind to an "opossum"-like fossil as the father of all mammals.
Human genealogy became the model for his famous "tree of life".

Fossil evidence

None of this minimizes the importance of Darwin's Galapagos and Pampas observations. The giant tortoises, mockingbirds and finches varied from island to island, and this became clearer to Darwin after London Zoo's bird expert John Gould analysed his finches in January 1837.
Then Richard Owen (the man shortly to give the world the "dinosaurs") diagnosed Darwin's fossils. Darwin thought that some were "rhinos" (Old World mammals), yet Owen showed that they were indigenous giant armadillos, sloths and anteaters.
So extinct animals were being succeeded by related living types. This evidence remains crucial, but it was the way Darwin marshalled it that concerns us. Assuming the tacit truth of racial "brotherhood" allowed him to join the bloodlines into a common descent configuration.

And he did so in 1837-8, just as the West Indies slaves were being released (technically freed in 1833, they were forced to serve an "apprenticeship" which effectively kept them in bondage till 1838).
This freedom filled Darwin with a sense of pride and he declared that "we... have made a greater sacrifice, than ever made by any nation, to expiate our sin". He certainly had.
All too clear

His common descent imagery was unknown elsewhere in natural history, beyond racially unifying works such as James Cowles Prichard's Researches into the Physical History of Mankind. That book traced animal races to common ancestors in order to prove that all humans could have descended from Adam.

Darwin, preparing to write the Origin of Species, scribbled inside his copy of Prichard: "How like my Book all this will be". It wasn't so. He remained a worried man and in the later 1850s dropped humans from his publishing plans because the subject was "so surrounded with prejudices".
But even though the Origin of Species (1859) skirted people, no one doubted that they remained at its core.

Darwin's "bulldog" T.H. Huxley, who took over the fight for human evolution, said that when it came to uniting black and white ancestries, he "was pleased to be able to show that Mr Darwin was for once on the side of orthodoxy".
Darwin could have wished for no more.
------
Adrian Desmond is an Honorary Research Fellow in the Biology Department at University College London. He is co-author with James Moore of Darwin's Sacred Cause (Allen Lane)

CountryFowl

Unfortunately the text came out all in bold. It was a technical glitch there.
Thanks.

Danny Boy

"c)Has someone "monkeyed with the constants of physics" to make life possible?" Tayong.

Mr. Tayong,
this question makes me laugh. In 1664, children in sunday school in England were asking the question, "If Adam and Eve had only boys, as per the text that was being read to them, how come the multiciplity and diversity in human forms as they knew it then?
Guess what, these flippant fellows were stood in a corner as punishment for the rest of the afternoon.
You want us to believe that someone monkeyed with the constants ot the laws of Physics to make life possible. That someone must own the laws and constants of Physics and is above these laws.
I am not yet senile. and wishing to pay indulgencies!!
Thanks.

tayong

Danny Boy
Im still waiting to get answers to my questions. When you answer them then we can jump from Friday school to Sunday school.

Country Fowl
Yes, I am of the science field,hardcore scienece as a matter of fact but that doesnt blind me to reality. I learn the theories, structure and apply them yet I have a mind, conscience and soul of my own.

I dont dismiss Darwin in anyway, form nor shape. He was a great mind and I pay him my dues. But as its often said the greatest things in life are unseen, that's why we close our eyes when we kiss, cry, and dream.

When I see Pa Countryfowl come together with Mami Countryfowl and bring CountryFowl Junior into this world it tells me something. Why didnt countryFowl evolve from some apes or monkey from his village?

I ask questions if there is no great architect out there who designs all these things. I dont go to Darwin each time I have a perplexing situation before me.There are countless ways of attaining greatness, but any road to reaching one's maximum potential must be built on excellence with a conscience not arrogance.

CountryFowl

Mr. Tayong,

Research and inquiry are necessary.

---------------------------
Reference: From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolly_(sheep)

Dolly was a ewe (July 5, 1996 – February 14, 2003), remarkable in being the first mammal to be cloned from an adult somatic cell, using the process of nuclear transfer.[1][2] She was cloned by Ian Wilmut, Keith Campbell and colleagues at the Roslin Institute in Edinburgh, Scotland. She was born on July 5, 1996 and she lived until the age of six,[3] and was dubbed "the world's most famous sheep" by Scientific American.[4]
The cell used as the donor for the cloning of Dolly was taken from a mammary gland, and the production of a healthy clone therefore proved that a cell taken from a specific part of the body that could recreate a whole individual. As Dolly was cloned from part of a mammary gland, she was named after the famously busty country western singer Dolly Parton.[5]
---------------------

When human beings would have successfully been able to clone themselves will they be classified as Gods or Divine architects...??

Or should we classify the scientist who successfully cloned a sheep as being divine architects...???

Do you see the philosophical and religious implications of these points...??

Do you also realize that the points you advancing to support your positions are not really valid to use as proof of the existence or non-existence of God or Gods...?????

Has it occur to you that this problem of the existence or the non-existence of God might be the wrong approach in the understanding of this mystery...??

CountryFowl

Mr. Tayong Asked:

Question:


But, where are there fossils of half-evolved dinosaurs or other creatures? I put it into a layman's language. If for instance a man developed from a lower specie say apes or monkeys , when and why did that stop happening? Why dont we see apes and monkeys "evolving" today into lower humans and then maybe finally into real or complete humans?

Answers:

1. Attrition, erosion, environmental changes, floods, earthquakes, fires, landslides et cetera would have made it impossible for some fossils to be preserved intact.

2. To answer your second question, we need to have some background information on evolution.
So here we can reference an encyclopedia as an independent reference source for our information:

Excerpts

" Rates of Evolution "

Does evolution proceed at a fast pace or a slow pace? How much of evolution can we actually observe? In 1972 Niles Eldredge and Stephen J. Gould wrote an article that presented the idea of punctuated equilibrium . Some organisms for which there are good fossil records show long periods of no morphological evolution (evolution in the form and structure of organisms); the animals remain unchanged over thousands of years. But then there suddenly appears what looks like a morphologically similar new species. The theory of punctuated equilibrium is that long periods of no change are followed by short periods of rapid transition. This is in direct contrast to gradualism. Gradualism suggests slow but continuous change over geological time. How is one to know if the fossil record is incomplete, and that the seemingly rapid change is accounted for by missing intermediate stages?

This question has inspired research on the rate of evolutionary change. It is possible to calculate rates of morphological evolution from the fossil record. Evolutionary rates can be measured over several generations in natural and laboratory populations. It is also possible to measure the relative rate of change in molecules for which the gene sequence is known. The sequence of a gene is the order of nucleotides within it. Sexual reproduction can also increase the rate of evolution compared to asexual reproduction. This is due to increased genetic variation by recombination and independent assortment. Gene sequencing has made it possible to investigate how the rate of evolution changes with the degree of underlying genetic variation, also called genetic polymorphism . In 1991 the first important test of rates of molecular evolution and molecular polymorphism was conducted by J. H. McDonald and Martin Kreitman. As the entire genetic material (genomes) of more and more organisms are sequenced, we will understand more about the rate and mechanisms of evolution.

Higgins, Laura A.. "Biological Evolution." Animal Sciences. The Gale Group Inc. 2002. Encyclopedia.com. 14 Feb. 2009 <http://www.encyclopedia.com>.

Bibliography
Campbell, Neil A., Jane B. Reece, and Lawrence G. Mitchell. Biology, 5th ed. Menlo Park, CA: Addison Wesley Longman, Inc., 1999.

Endler, John A. Natural Selection in the Wild. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1986.

Futuyma, Douglas J. Evolutionary Biology, 3rd ed. Sunderland, MA: Sinauer Associates, Inc., 1998.

Otte, Daniel, and John A. Endler. Speciation and Its Consequences. Sunderland, MA: Sinauer Associates, Inc., 1989.

Purves, William K. et al. Life: The Science of Biology, 5th ed. Sunderland, MA: Sinauer Associates, Inc. 1998.

Ridley, Mark. Evolution, 2nd ed. Cambridge, MA: Blackwell Science, Inc., 1996.
see also Adaptation; Genes; Genetics; Natural Selection.

--------------------------

Another Reference from Stephen Hawkin's Life in the Universe:

Link: http://hawking.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=65

The DNA in human beings contains about three billion nucleic acids. However, much of the information coded in this sequence, is redundant, or is inactive. So the total amount of useful information in our genes, is probably something like a hundred million bits. One bit of information is the answer to a yes no question. By contrast, a paper back novel might contain two million bits of information. So a human is equivalent to 50 Mills and Boon romances. A major national library can contain about five million books, or about ten trillion bits. So the amount of information handed down in books, is a hundred thousand times as much as in DNA.

Even more important, is the fact that the information in books, can be changed, and updated, much more rapidly. It has taken us several million years to evolve from the apes. During that time, the useful information in our DNA, has probably changed by only a few million bits. So the rate of biological evolution in humans, is about a bit a year. By contrast, there are about 50,000 new books published in the English language each year, containing of the order of a hundred billion bits of information. Of course, the great majority of this information is garbage, and no use to any form of life. But, even so, the rate at which useful information can be added is millions, if not billions, higher than with DNA.


Fon.

Cat turns into woman in P/Harcourt - 5 killed as cultists clash
Bolaji Ogundele, Port Harcourt - 22.05.2008

(did not succeed to paste picture, one could use key words to search the picture)

This woman was reported to have earlier
been seen as a cat before she reportedly
turned into a woman in Port Harcourt, Rivers
State, on Thursday. Photo: Bolaji Ogundele.WHAT could be described as a fairy tale turned real on Wednesday in Port Harcourt, Rivers State, as a cat allegedly turned into a middle-aged woman after being hit by a commercial motorcycle (Okada) on Aba/Port Harcourt Expressway.

Nigerian Tribune learnt that three cats were crossing the busy road when the okada ran over one of them which immediately turned into a woman. This strange occurrence quickly attracted people around who descended on the animals. One of them, it was learnt, was able to escape while the third one was beaten to death, still as a cat though.


According to a source who witnessed what happened, the cat-woman said she and the two other cat-fellows had travelled from Abuja to Port Harcourt to kill three people. “The woman said they came to Port Harcourt from Abuja and that they came to kill three people. She said they had succeeded in killing two people, but the third person, whom I guess might be a pastor, was difficult for them and that they were preparing to go back to Abuja,” said the source.


Another witness, who gave his name as James, said the woman started faking when she saw that many people were gathering around her.. “I have never seen anything like this in my life. I saw a woman lying on the road instead of a cat. Blood did not come out of her body at that time. When people gathered and started asking her questions, she pretended that she did not know what had happened," he said.


When the Nigerian Tribune got to the scene of the incident near Garrison Junction, the cat-woman was seen sitting on the ground with blood all over her body. The right side of her face had a deep cut from what was gathered to be from a cutlass.
She was later taken to a hospital for medical attention. It took the intervention of policemen to prevent the mob from killing her.


When reached for information from the police, the Public Relations Officer of the Rivers State police command, Mrs. Rita Inoma-Abbey, said she had been taken to the hospital.


“She has been taken to Teme Clinic. Police will still be guarding her so that she will not disappear,” he said. In another development, at least five people have been confirmed dead while four others were said to be receiving medical treatment following a suspected cult clash in Aluu, one of the host communities of the University of Port Harcourt, Rivers State.


Nigerian Tribune gathered from sources around UNIPORT that the clash, which led to the loss of lives and injury to others, was between two cult groups; Vikings and Black Axe Confraternity, a spill over of the struggle between the two cult groups on the RSUST campus, Port Harcourt.


http://www.tribune. com.ng/22052008/ news/news2. html


tayong

CountryFowl

I am not against researching whatever for I am one of them. But as the name goes its research findings. We discover what already has been existing , no one even those cloning has created anything. Let me try to avoid going into deep theory to keep the discussion at the level of everyone because not all here are from the scientific field.


Here are the points and facts Im making:
When you have a chemical reaction, let's say 2H2 + O2 + spark ->2 H2O, has new information been generated? It hasn't.

There is simply a rule in the universe that says when you mix oxygen, hydrogen and a spark to start the reaction, water is formed.This rule already existed in the universe.

Different from discovering something is creating something. When something has been invented, you have the creation of something that is not inherently implicit in the rules of the physical universe. This means that some information has been channeled from a realm that is different from the physical realm.


The Darwinists, in order to provide ideological support for atheism and arrogance I would add, claim that an evolution process exists that is neither a process of discovery nor the extraction of information from a different realm. In reality, natural selection describes a process of discovery. In other words, the shape and functioning of all the animals would be "compressed" into the basic physical laws of the universe.

I am for research and more research even cloning yet all of that would be discovering and never creating. Dont tell me that errosion would have caused some half-evolved dinosaurs harm. Sorry Sir, that argument is a little bit lame because Darwin himself argued for critical evaluation(http://www.discovery.org/). This is the question that remains unanswered and baffling!

If evolution should be taken with a pinch of salt then we should rise up one day, see an ape or monkey gradually changing into a human. Some try some gimmick by saying the process is so gradual to be noticed. Give me a break.

tayong

...sorry,there seems to be a glitch on this blog that causes letters to be bold.

CountryFowl

Mr. Tayong,

I will still point out that Darwin does not refute the existence or non-existence of God in any of his theories.

People only need to look objectively at his theories to see if it can be used to interpret hitherto unsolvable biological and evolutionary questions, they do not have to take all of his theories as the gospel truth on everything we see in life.

Same goes for Newton's theories, until Einstein came around to add more to what people were unable to resolve and Stephen Hawkins continues where Einstein left.
It is a dynamic process of researching and knowing more.

Mr. Tayong,
What would you say about fossil fuels...??? They are formed from the remains of plants and animals.....????

Reference: http://www.umich.edu/~gs265/society/fossilfuels.htm

In pointing out cloning, I am pointing out the obvious problems which creationists would have to take into consideration when using the grand design argumentation.

Danny Boy

Mr. Tayong,
you can have your conscience and some of us our arrogance! Abuse is the refuge of the scoundrel, who is as thick as a stick in mud!
You seem to be harping on, on Darwinism,; I pointed you to "Chemical evolution" but you ignore; only to reproduce a stupid chemical equation, that has no significant bearing on the topic we are talking about!
However, God created water; where in Genesis did he tell Adam and Eve, this is the secret formula for creating water?
Mr. Tayong, all I want is for Massock to be built a pantheon, if right, or run out of town for his scare-mongering, deceit and feh-mania.

CountryFowl

Mr. Tayong,

I have just cross checked your link here: http://www.discovery.org/

It does not indicate the point you are referencing or attempting to put across....???

What were you pointing out with that link...?????

In any case, if you refrain from boxing and cornering this topic only to a selected terrain which you prefer, we can level the ground and take up the issues one by one.

For instance here:
" Dont tell me that errosion would have caused some half-evolved dinosaurs harm."

I was talking specifically of fossils and not half evolved dinosaurs.

Surely you are not going to deny or refute Erosion, or its impact on the surface of the Earth, this is a process which goes on daily all around us....???
If it erodes stones, why should this process not also erode fossils...????

There are plenty and plenty of points to cover, but alas this is a blog and not the right place for us to go into lengthy debates and discussions on the existence or non-existence of God or Gods or the origin of the Universe.

tayong

Danny boy
You just boosted above of having your arrogance and arrogance can be terribly humuliating sometimes. Its amazing to see you write this:

..."you ignore; only to reproduce a stupid chemical equation, that has no significant bearing on the topic we are talking about..."

Danny maybe CountryFowl can bail you out on this one. That equation is not some "..stupid chemical equation.." and it has all relevance concerning what we have been talking about if you know something about the big bang explosion theory.

Like one guy often says in this forum, make sure to grow wings before you attempt to fly,Sir.

Klemenceau


Hi Tayong, I have been following your argument with Danny Boy and CountryFowl. It is really a heated one. So far you have highlighted some pertinent points here but Danny Boy wouldn't understand you.-It is not strange for the bible clearly talks of this. There are lots of things in the Bible that only through the help of the Holy Spirit can we understand. Human reason sometimes can't help much and until you start accepting simple things then can you be helped to understand complex one's i.e. why a lot of things about God is like mystery.
Danny Boy might ask you to explain the believe that God is one and at the same time made of three persons- God The Father, God The Son and God The Holy Spirit. This is hard to explain. You see, we easily believe stories of 6000years ago but can't believe that Jesus came and died for our sins just 2000+ years ago.
Those who believe and worship God, the creator of heaven and earth are considered as lacking or having no sense of reasoning. But it goes beyond reason to believe and accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour.
So Tayong, you have done your part, allow the rest for God. You plant but God waters. Many have argued and even persecuted God’s children but ended up being pastors. It has happened and it is still happening nowadays as it happened to Paul.
God bless you all
Shalom
Klemenceau

CountryFowl

To klemenceau,

It is to premature to define or draw a line now. Nobody is refuting the existence or non-existence of God.
The principal point countryfowl is putting across is that, before we write or express opinions on such deep issues, we should try to research them first to spare all of us the lengthy back and forth arguments.

If you are interested to read the write up, please go through it and point out what you do not find to be logical or truthful. Cite your own objections and point us to relevant references to backup your points.

In this way we can have a level ground to debate on.


[ Your Question]

Danny Boy might ask you to explain the believe that God is one and at the same time made of three persons- God The Father, God The Son and God The Holy Spirit. This is hard to explain.

[Answers and References]

Excerpts:
The Origin of the Trinity: From Paganism to Constantine
by Cher-El L. Hagensick
 
The Rabbi ‘s deep voice echoes through the dusk, ‘Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord’.{# De 6:4} What a far cry that is from Judaism’s offspring, Christianity, and its belief in the Trinity. While the majority of the Christian world considers the concept of the Trinity vital to Christianity, many historians and Bible scholars agree that the Trinity of Christianity owes more to Greek philosophy and pagan polytheism than to the monotheism of the Jew and the Jewish Jesus.
 
The search for the origins of the Trinity begins with the earliest writings of man. Records of early Mesopotamian and Mediterranean civilizations show polytheistic religions, though many scholars assert that earliest man believed in one god. The 19th century scholar and Protestant minister, Alexander Hislop, devotes several chapters of his book The Two Babylons to showing how this original belief in one god was replaced by the triads of paganism which were eventually absorbed into Catholic Church dogmas. A more recent Egyptologist, Erick Hornung, refutes the original monotheism of Egypt: ‘[Monotheism is] a phenomenon restricted to the wisdom texts,’ which were written between 2600 and 2530 BC (50-51); but there is no question that ancient man believed in ‘one infinite and Almighty Creator, supreme over all’ (Hislop 14); and in a multitude of gods at a later point. Nor is there any doubt that the most common grouping of gods was a triad.1

Link to the complete article can be found below.

[Works Cited]
 


Bauer, Walter. Orthodoxy and Heresy in Earliest Christianity. Trans. Philadelphia Seminar on Christian Origins. Ed. Robert A. Kraft and Gerhard Krodel. Philadelphia: Fortress. 1979.
 
The Bible.
 
Burns, Eugene. The Doctrine of Christ. np
 
Campbell, James Marshall. The Greek Fathers. New York: Cooper Square Publishers. 1963.
 
Carter, Jesse Benedict. The Religious Life of Ancient Rome: A Study in the Development of Religious Consciousness, from the Foundation of the City Until the Death of Gregory the Great. New York: Cooper Square Publishers. 1972.
 
Durant, Will. Our Oriental Heritage. New York: Simon. 1935. Vol. 1 of The Story of Civilization. 11 vols. 1935-75.
 
—Caesar and Christ. New York: Simon. 1944. Vol. 3 of The Story of Civilization. 11 vols. 1935-75.
 
—The Age of Faith. New York: Simon. 1950. Vol. 4 of The Story of Civilization. 11 vols. 1935-75.
 
Fortman, Edmund J. The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity.
 
Philadelphia: Westminster P. 1972.
 
Harnack, Adolf. History of Dogma. Trans. Neil Buchanan. 3rd German ed. 3 vols. New York: Dover. 1961.
 
Hart, George. Egyptian Myths. Austin: U of Texas. 1990.
 
Hislop, Alexander. The Two Babylons: Or, the Papal Worship. 1853. 2nd American ed. Neptune: Loizeaux. 1959.
 
Hooke, S. H. Babylonian and Assyrian Religion. Norman: U of Oklahoma P. c1963.
 
Hornung, Erik. Conceptions of God in Ancient Egypt: The One and the Many. Trans. John Baines. Ithaca: Cornell UP. 1982.
 
Isaiah. Ed. A. Cohen. Rev ed. London: Soncino P. 1983.
 
Kelly, J. N. D. Early Christian Doctrines. New York: Harper. 1959
 
Laing, Gordon Jennings. Survivals of Roman Religion. New York: Cooper Square Publishers. 1963.
 
Lonergan, Bernard. The Way to Nicea: The Dialectical Development of Trinitarian Theology. Trans. Conn O’Donovan. Philadelphia: Westminster P. 1976. Trans. Of De Deo Trino. Rome: Gregorian UP. 1964. 17-112
 
McGiffert, Arthur Cushman. A History of Christian Thought. Vol. 1. New York: Scribner’s. 1932.
 
Pelikan, Jaroslav. The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100-600). Chicago: U of Chicago P. 1971. Vol. 1 of The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine. 5 vols.
 
—Historical Theology: Continuity and Change in Christian Doctrine. New York: Corpus. 1971.
 
Saggs, H. W. F. The Greatness that was Babylon: A Sketch of the Ancient Civilization of the Tigris-Euphrates Valley. New York: New American Library. 1968.
 
The Soncino Chumash. Ed A. Cohen. 2nd ed. London: Soncino P. 1983.
-----------------------
Reference link: http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/doctrine/The%20Origin%20of%20the%20Trinity.htm

CountryFowl

To Tayong and Klemenceau,

Once more take a look again at this claim from Massock which you people are holding up as gospel truth and examine it objectively and in detail to see what is means..

" Rev. Massock

Massock, who is presently doing Masters in Theology at the Presbyterian Theological Seminary, spoke to The Post, January 28. He said God revealed to him recently that during the 2009 Youth Day celebration in Kumba, youths would be initiated into the marine and occult kingdoms. This, he said, would be done through the sharing of sweets, biscuits and other chewable by students to their mates, thereby provoking massive initiation in the form of trance. "

" He said God revealed to him " => I am emphasizing this one statement to point out the obvious problems with such a declaration.

1.What Massock means really is that he had
a. A Theophany or spiritual, religious experience or an epiphany.
b. Epiphanies if we go by historical evidences are such profound and deeply serious experiences that it transforms not only the individual who undergoes them but also entire societies for thousands and thousands of years to come.
Examples are, all the religious experiences of the great religious leaders and prophets who have transformed man's thinking and cultures.
You people already know these examples.

2. Second, The term theophany has acquired a specific usage for Jews and Christians with respect to the Bible: It refers to the manifestation of God to man; the sensible sign by which the presence of God is revealed. If the word is taken in this sense, and the passages which merely mention the fact of a revelation - without describing it - are separated from those which speak of the "angel of God," only a small number of theophanies are found in the Hebrew Bible (also known as the Old Testament.)

3. Third: only a small number of theophanies are found in the Hebrew Bible => I am emphasizing again this point. Please read carefully only a small number of theophanies are found in the hebrew bible...!!!!

Why...?????????????????????????
Why...?????????????????????????

Because this kind of an experience is not a playful thing, which charlattans, pseudo-prophets, somatotonic-hedonistic-would-be-preachers can go to newspapers and broadcast that God has spoken or that they just had coffee or late night chat with God and God told them so and so...!!!!!!!

Now to Tayong.

You mention that you are a hard core science oriented individual.
Let us take a simple example of a supernova to illustrate a crucial point here.
---------
A supernova (plural: supernovae) is a stellar explosion. They are extremely luminous and cause a burst of radiation that often briefly outshines an entire galaxy, before fading from view over several weeks or months. During this short interval, a supernova can radiate as much energy as the Sun could emit over its life span.[1] The explosion expels much or all of a star's material[2] at a velocity of up to a tenth the speed of light, driving a shock wave[3] into the surrounding interstellar medium. This shock wave sweeps up an expanding shell of gas and dust called a supernova remnant.

Reference Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernova

--------------

CountryFowl

Mr. Tayong,

I am citing the Supernova example above to illustrate a crucial point.
Please follow clearly.

A supernova can radiate as much energy as the sun could emit over its life span....!!!!!

What then could be the power behind the universe..?? or the mystery behind the universe or universes...????

Do you think a human being is capable of going near such a power either with his mind or brain or physical body......?????????

Regardless of whether we agree on this point or not, it is impossible and completely out of the question that things which are in existence on a 3 dimensional world can fathom things which are existing in 4-5-6-7-8-9-10 dimensional worlds...!!!!
You can cross check on Einstein's theories or Stephen Hawkins to also confirm multiple dimensional worlds.

The mind or human mind is simply not the tool nor have the capacity to climb beyond the limitations of time, space & distance to fathom certain things.
Even if it could travel at the speed of light or could warp time, it will still not be able to fathom anything for the simple reason that it is living in time and will always be behind time....!!!!!!

Which means the thing it is observing or targeting to meet would already have metamorphosed or changed into something else....!!!!!!

Living things do change this is a fact also.

So Massock and company or cohorts can not lay claims to extraordinary powers of the mind or spirit or access to God, when even the biblical Christ, the Buddhas, Lao Tzu and many other prophets before Massock have never in anyway claim to know entirely the total essence of everything behind the Universe.

Mr. Tayong.

I am trying hard to come to the point and to point out that, we are but little beings in this world and people should be very careful when making claims about God, or knowing God or speaking on Behalf of God.

Let God talk for God.

Watesih

Just caught the tail of the train there!Wonderful discussion gentlemen.Tayong,Danny.B and Countryfowl that show down is great.I will go through everything before I shoot off my mouth.But in the mean time this is what I will say and ask of you guys:
1.Darwin was an atheist,and he knew that going against the religious norms of the day was too much.Had it been Darwin accepted the existence of God from the outset,he wouldn`t have caved in from the pressure his contemporaries mounted on him.
2.At the end of his book on the theory of evolution,Darwin finally accepts the existence of God.If his christian faith was grounded,he wouldn't have resisted God in the beginning.
3.We shouldn't give into the temptation of categorizing witchcraft as an African affair.We all know how Europe broke away from superstition during the 15th century.The Renaissance period ushered in the prosperity that the continent enjoys up to this day.

Question
Countryfowl and Danny.B,do you believe and acknowledge the existence of entities like Amorc and Rosicrucian,and where do you place them in the realm of belief systems?

CountryFowl

To Mr. Watesih,

[ Your Question ]
Countryfowl and Danny.B,do you believe and acknowledge the existence of entities like Amorc and Rosicrucian,and where do you place them in the realm of belief systems?

---------------

Briefly as this is also a huge issue which we can discuss for days on end.

Amorc and rosicrucian are synonymous. Their focus seems to be mysticism and the mastery of life through that as they claim. They also claim to be a humanitarian organization et cetera et cetera...

Another point i know is that many of their beliefs revolves or centers around early Egyptian belief systems, intermixed with Judeo-Christian beliefs, Celtic beliefs, elements of Greek philosophy, Roman paganism and possibly some elements of eastern philosophical and religious beliefs.

As to the veracity of their claims, personally i do not believe or hold their belief systems as being important or consequential to the goals of human life.

Second point, it is a secret society only for selected members who have to pay membership dues...?????

To come to God or the Truth must people pay other human beings in cash or kind for that to happen...??????

Some of their tactics depend on visual, olfactory and psychological trickery and tactics to hypnotize the mind into either hallucinating or experiencing auditory phenomena which a drug, mescaline or the mexican peyote can equally do...?? but this experiences evaporates the next day living the individual still testing for more and subsequently becoming dependent on it...?

It is claimed again that they have mystical powers et cetera, well their powers are derived from numbers i.e. members who hold prominent positions in society and control wealth in one form or the other, another source of this power comes from propaganda as well as the fear which society has for it.

Some will claim many other mystical powers, but what are their purposes & use in the aims of human life is the question.

In our human societies the powerful are existing specifically because of the weak. The powerful also operate through fear and other multiple psychological tactics on the weak which works pretty well.


The entire Universe is a mystery, no one man, sect, group or institution can claim special knowledge of it or have a monopoly to the understanding of these great mysteries contained with the Universe.

The Buddhas, The Christ, the Great prophets of antiquity only alluded to this great mystery with symbolic language and analogies, they never categorically claimed that they spoke with God or Gods et cetera et cetera as some of our modern day pseudo preachers, mystic institutions or some sects are doing today.

Klemenceau


CountryFowl,

"The Buddhas, The Christ, the Great prophets of antiquity only alluded to this great mystery with symbolic language and analogies, they never categorically claimed that they spoke with God or Gods et cetera et cetera as some of our modern day pseudo preachers, mystic institutions or some sects are doing today."


First the bible tells me that Jesus Christ is the son of God and HE is God. There are many instances that He spoke to God. My only reference is the "Bible" the word of God. So from your statement above 。。。。。"The Buddhas, The Christ 。。。。。。。。" may be is not referring to Jesus Christ the son of God who gave His life so that You and Me may be saved.
There are many religions and beliefs and each got its doctrines. Those who researched and wrote things for or against The Bible, might either have been Christians talking for the Bible or atheists/people of different religions writing against Christianity. So as a Christian, the word of God- Bible is Yes and Amen.
I remember I wrote somewhere that acknowledging the fact that there are fake men of God and that if Pastor Masock is speaking from God then we should take it seriously.
This argument I believe is because someone said such things as witchcraft, mermaid spirits etc do not exist. I came in just to point out in my own little way that the Bible testifies of the existence of such things and they do really exist. It is not a mystery.
Pastor Mascock could be a true man of God, who hears from God or a fake one. The question is, do the things he mentioned exist or happen around us every day? My answer is yes. I don't know what yours is.

Thanks and may God bless you my brother.
Shalom
Klemenceau

CountryFowl

Klemenceau,

We are both living in this world, if and when you will be able to point us to a mermaid,
or any activities of such creatures, then we will have a true ground of understanding on this issue.


But as long as there is no physical evidences you or Massock can point for us to verify those claims, we can safely say that it belongs to the category of hoaxes.


As of today, the purported series of events as claimed by Massock have not taken place, Radical brother who has commented on this issue can testify as he did somewhere that he phoned Kumba to find out if there were mass initiations and there was nothing amiss.
So I believe that point is cleared already.

But when you are pointing us only to the bible or to have faith in what Massock says about this marine kingdom, I am afraid he will have to answer plenty of questions as to the veracity of his claims.

Klemenceau,

Finally if you would have taken a little of your time to go over some points i have raised previously you will see my position and like l said before do not draw quick conclusions.
Public claims which are calculated to elicit a response from the public should also be back up with facts, in this way the public has the chance to digest the information and act upon it diligently.

What Massock is doing is a form of psychological terrorism, it does not only frighten parents, but it puts the children in a terrible state of mind if they understand only very little about life and do not yet have the mental capacity to distinguish falsehood and the truth in certain areas of life.

Who is going to take care of their fears and worries after this..????

tayong

CountryFowl

None of the proponents of this discussion is here to confirm that Rev Massock actually got these things revealed to him by God. That's a different thing altogether which Im not qualified to say anything about.The bone of contention has been whether these ills exist in our society and whether they have to be condemned and exposed for what they are.

Now back to the theoritical discussion. I will always like to make it short.The reference that you gave above rather comfirms by points of view i.e.

1.That there are certain things beyond our understanding and may I dare to say that the bible as I know has some amazing explanations of it? Well hope my views dont make me into a rightwing extremist!

2.According to Newton's third law which in simple language is force and reaction law.i.e. everything happens because someone has done it. Even Darwins in the last days bowed to this stating thus.."The more I search for the missing link, the more I see some design architect in play..." this is from Darwins later days works.

3.Concerning the big bang theory which someone dabled into unknowingly before, this theory only exists one second after creation, in principle. Scientists have not been able to prove what existed in that one second moment. In my view God comes in!You may disagree but thats my view!

4.Lastly I would say some of our "learned colleagues" seem to think the best way to display our intellectual dexterity is to brag about the non existence of God. I think the contrary. As we research life and existence, perplexing circumstances point to a more meticulous force in play.

Finding out about this force and if possible exploring it seems to be the more earnest approach.


CountryFowl

Mr. Tayong,

" The bone of contention has been whether these ills exist in our society and whether they have to be condemned and exposed for what they are. "

By all means the evils of society should be condemn loud and clear, they should be exposed outright. That is a necessity without any question.

I will state clearly that the evils of society are coming directly from man's cruelty, animosity, intolerance, greed, superstition, fear, lust, aggression, hatred et cetera.

To put the blame to outside forces and agencies, is what I am objecting to, individuals must begin to look in the mirror to see themselves, their actions and learn how to correct them.

We should not continue to give ourselves excuses, we should desist from inventing phantoms and imaginary beings as being responsible for our misdeeds and vices.

Individuals should investigate and research on important issues which is a matter of life and death actually, so as a society we are not continually mislead or tricked in surrendering our dignity, our intelligence and trust to unscrupulous chaps whose only interest is to advance the " SELF " and its sinister interests.

How many churches are there today in Cameroon and why are they multiplying at such a fast rate...???
How many Pastors, Revs are there today in Cameroon...????
Has this calling become but a means for survival and a source of employment at any cost...???

Should society not questioned these points...???
Should society accept as a preacher any man who picks up a bible, memorizes it's content and repeats verses word for word...????

What about character...?? what about example...???
These are issues which any reasonable human being will raise, besides any tom and dick can quote from the bible, the main problem here is the substance, the core experiences and cleaning of character is lacking...!!!!!
-------

Once more look at this statement....!!!!!
--------
" He said God revealed to him " => I am emphasizing this one statement to point out the obvious problems with such a declaration.
--------

I already commented as to the fallacy of this horrendous declaration. The man has schutzpah...!!!!
And he has to temerity to pose for the newspaper as well.
Off course it can also be that, he is friends with the journalist.

tayong

"....By all means the evils of society should be condemn loud and clear, they should be exposed outright. That is a necessity without any question.

I will state clearly that the evils of society are coming directly from man's cruelty, animosity, intolerance, greed, superstition, fear, lust, aggression, hatred et cetera.

To put the blame to outside forces and agencies, is what I am objecting to, individuals must begin to look in the mirror to see themselves, their actions and learn how to correct them..."

CountryFowl:
Well spoken but may I ask you if it's by commission or ommision that your list left out the ills spoken of by the Pastor?

I suppose by commission which brings us back to where we started. The pastor was shouted at for talking of things, as claimed, couldnt be easily proven and by the words of someone , that could cause suspicion, social mistrust and disturbance.

Talking about the Rev man is another topic for another discussion. Let's differentiate between the message and the messenger.So far we have been debating the message, leave out the messenger for now.

These evils happen in our society every now and then. Whether we believe in their existence or not doesnt stop them from happening. Of course human beings should take responsibility for their actions though your list seems exhaustive to the physical, mine includes all evil both within and without.

Watesih

Countryfowl,
Thank you for your answer to my question.What I got from your answer can be summarised thus:

1.You accept ,albeit halfheartedly that there is mysticism surrounding the existence of these societies.We can therefore safely conclude that something that can not be explained scientifically is superstitious.Pastor Massock is saying the same thing,that there exist one of these groups in darkness trying hard to wreak havock on our society.Forget about his style!
2.You posit that you do not think their belief systems are consequential to the goals of human life.This contradicts the idea that their power is derived from members who hold prominent positions in society and control wealth.This gives the impression that for the ordinary people to become wealthy and prominent,they should
also join these secret societies.

Danny.Boy,
Could you please explain this phenomenon of trances that has bedeviled our school milieu for long now,and tell us how it is related to science,and why it is most of the times collective,that is affecting many people at the same time.Is it a new form of epidemic?

CountryFowl

Tayong,

Did you go over the examples i posted of happenings in Tanzania...???
Albinos are facing grave danger in Eastern Africa.

They are being killed and their body parts extracted, because a segment of society believes that these body parts can help them to riches or have extraordinary powers.

This same problem was happening in Sierra Leone, Liberia and Ivory Coast where rebel leaders where manipulating the people's belief in witchcraft against them and sending innocent children and men to their death.
This same phenomena is happening in our society and neighboring Nigeria, in the form of trading in body parts, because people believe that they can get ahead in life or have an advantage in society when they have powers.

So I have addressed this point in relationship to the dangers of what Massock is helping to fuel by his utterances.

You are still to address these points and examples to clearly point out the fallacy of what is objectionable to those points.
------------------------


Watesih,

" 2. You posit that you do not think their belief systems are consequential to the goals of human life.This contradicts the idea that their power is derived from members who hold prominent positions in society and control wealth. This gives the impression that for the ordinary people to become

    wealthy and prominent
,they should also join these secret societies. "
----------------------

1. Wealth and prominence => these are not the only goals of life nor do they define the total of life.

Ordinary people, through diligence, hard work, knowledge and persistence will always attain all of the fundamental goals of human life.

The goals of human life are simple. People consciously or unconsciously, will sooner or later gravitate towards those goals. Everyone in life, if they are normal and healthy formulates a strong desire to gain freedom, peace and happiness.
But in the attainment of those goals, what are the means which people use....???

If they are pursuing these goals by devious means, to attain them at the expense of or on the backs of others, that is where the problem comes in.

When people can attain everything in this life with the simple tools that life has already provided all of us with, what sense does it make to go through mystical labyrinths, tortuous and circuitous pathways which are meaningless and pointless...???
What then is the relevance of secret societies like Amorc....???

That was the main point.

If a man is chanced and lucky enough to study all there is to study and can gather a lot of knowledge, such a man will have sufficient in life to be contented.

But problems arises when people are not satisfied with what they already have. When they start to formulate the desire to have " more and more and more and more ", then we have these colossal issues which destroys the whole balance and fabric of our societies.

CountryFowl

3.We shouldn't give into the temptation of categorizing witchcraft as an African affair.We all know how Europe broke away from superstition during the 15th century.The Renaissance period ushered in the prosperity that the continent enjoys up to this day.
-----------------
Watesih,

You mention the Renaissance and the prosperity of the continent after the Renaissance period.

Why are they enjoying this prosperity today...????

What did the Renaissance period do to Europeans...???

Why was the inquisition, witch hunting et cetera scrapped by Europeans..???

How many revolutions have European, Indian and Asian cultures undergone in the last 10.000 years...???

How many revolutions have our African cultures undergone since the last 10.000 years...???

If we were to follow and map these revolutions and map the psychological changes in people's thinking, feeling, outlook and attitudes what will we find.....?????

Take revolution to mean, transformations in every subject and area of human life. Agriculture, Economics, Science, Technology et cetera et cetera.

Why has the belief in witchcraft diminish drastically in European, Asian, Indian and American societies today...???

Radicalbrother

Dear all,
I must state her categorically without mincing words that i am impressed for the first time in this forum. The systematic and educative manner in which points are being advanced in the forum from the likes of Country fowl, Klemenceau etc make me happy. Hope that era of verbal punches especially when out of ideas is over and we are gradually coming back to our senses. That said, there are certain important points I want to know about AMORC
The Ancient Mystical Order of Rosi Crusis better known by the acronym AMORC is a non sectarian movement of both men and women like you are I who believe in esoteric wisdom as a vital tool in the evolution of mankind. It is not a religion in the sense that it is not governed by doctrines and dogmas but you are encouraged to think for yourself, create your own philosophy as you are an architect of your own destiny.
There are three truths
1. There exist God
2. There exist man
3. There exist a relationship between man and God, magnitude which no one knows
This explains why there are so many denominations today all in a bid to make people feel they are closer to their God. What is killing us today is fear of the unknown. There is one sin, ignorance and one salvation, applied knowledge.
The Rosicrucian Order uses techniques like Concentration, Visualization and Contemplation to reach God. The first question ‘Is a prayer to God a command or a supplication? Is God a child to be flattered with words like you are great, you are wonderful, your highness, most heavenly father etc? Of course not.
There are three ways of acquiring Knowledge
1.Rationalism. Art of critical thinking and drawing logical deductions
2. Empiricism. Art of critical thinking baked up with experiments to confirm that something really exist
3. Faith- Belief in the existence of things you do not know
Most Christians make use of the third option. They must be reminded that any mind that believes can not understand for belief is an escape of reality.
If someone complains that heavy sums of money are paid my member who are very rich, let me pause here to say that I know of very poor Rosicrucian from my findings. What is given for free has no value. You could have equally stayed at home without going to school to acquire the knowledge you have now. Did you not pay money in school.
The teachings of the Order are dispensed in the form of Monographs which are confidential and are categorized according to degrees 1-12
Do you know that Jesus the Christ was a Rosicrucian? Do you know that most if not all your so called Fathers and pastors are Rosicrucians
Who then is a Rosicrucian.? He is a mystic. He is some one who seeks a union between himself and God through a body of truths beyond human understanding. Do you know that you use only 10% of the potentials God bestowed on You?
How many of you can abstain from sex in order to achieve something. Do you know that sex especially for pleasure easily seperates you and your God?

Watesih

Countryfowl,
I like the way you use language.
That is selectively,and placidly.When I posed the first question,you kept saying,"they claim...";"it seems".I thought you and Danny Boy only believe in scientific facts.It was therefore preferable to say you don`t believe in and acknowledge the existence of secret societies.Anyway here is what I got from your newest write up:
1. That ordinary people through hardwork and diligence will always attain a level of perfection and bliss.But this does not in anyway cancel the fact that those who do not want to work hard,do not also want to attain perfect.They do and employ unorthodox methods like the ones the pastor has been decrying.
2.You are right to say everyone in life, if they are normal and healthy formulates a strong desire to gain freedom, peace and happiness.But as Bernard Fonlon said,"Each person tries to be moved than the others.This is one of the most fundamental forces at the back of human endeavour".This implies that there are people who are not contented with what is just normal and healthy.They want to explore the depth of things ,and know and see what the ordinary eye can't see.As intelligent as you sound,you obviously know the story of "Dr Faustus" ,whose waxen wings are melted by the sun ,because he soars above his reach.
3.When I mentioned the Renaissance,I wanted to draw your attention to the fact that the whole idea of witchcraft is as old as human civilization,.The simple fact that Europe embraced modernism and enjoys prosperity today does not cancel the fact that witchcraft existed and that it continues to exist.
4.I'm happy you use the words"diminish drastically".I want you to know from today that witchcraft has only been modernised alongside the economies of the regions you like citing.The Indians and Chinese are very superstitious,economic growth not withstanding.They are still some of the peoples of the world who keep worshipping all types of fanciful idols.They wear jade,and other types of emulates overtly believing they bring wealth.They use fireworks in celebrations believing they frighten off ghosts,the list is long.It's worthwhile keeping at the back of your mind that every single step,artifact initiated,or taken during the Beijing Olympic Games were all deeply rooted in Chinese myths.

CountryFowl

Watesih,

I am coming back to some points you have raise.
But here is something again from Tanzania which has similarities with what is happening back home.


------------
Mass fainting in Tanzanian exam

Fainting fits in schools are common in Tanzania
Junior school pupils in Tanzania experienced a mass fainting fit while taking their final year exams, an educational official has told the BBC.

The 20 girls at Ali Hassan Mwinyi School in Tabora started fainting after finishing their first paper.

"I'm not a specialist but I imagine this was a case of mass hysteria that does happen in some of the schools," Midemo Paul Makungu said.

He said it only affected the girls, some of whom took 40 minutes to revive.

"There was chaos, crying, screaming, running after that first paper," Mr Makungu, Tabora's educational officer, told the BBC News website.

More than 140 Standard Seven pupils were taking the national exam at the school in the north of the country.
He said special arrangements were made so that those who had fainted could finish the other two papers they had that day.
"They eventually finished at 11pm," he said.

It is not the first such incident at the school - over the last month there have been several mass fainting fits amongst the girl pupils.
"Normally this happens in girls' secondary schools. It is very common here," Mr Makungu said.

Here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7610744.stm

CountryFowl

Watesih,

If you have followed the whole issue, you will see that i have touched upon almost everything and have diligently follow everyone's points to make sure that i can respond well without omitting or selecting specific things to point out.
If I have done so, this is not delibrate.
------------
I grew up in the same society as you or Tayong or Klemenceau and the rest of us commenting here. Which means that the issue of witchcraft is not new to me nor can i say it is non-existent as a belief system.
It is a belief system in and of itself.
Is it a tangible reality...??? that is what we want or a trying to find out.
People in Benin, Haiti, Cuba have voodoo as their principal religion. This is for another time. I have asked Tayong if he has studied the religions of these societies. It was a valid question which he avoided. So i will let that go.

That people belief in witchcraft is an indisputable fact, I am not refuting this point.
I have clearly pointed out that, there is reasonable and logical explanations to many of the phenomena which we term witchcraft.


I specifically asked Tayong previously what was witchcraft, when was this word introduced into our vocabulary and if he has by an chanced studied our African cosmological and ontological point of view in regards to the Universe.

Those questions were meant to provide all of us a ground so we could investigate patiently if the belief and the reality that it is existing are one and the same thing.

I am very familiar with many aspects of chinese philosophy, religions and mythological beliefs, and have quoted one or two phrases to make a point in this discussion. That they are overtly superstitious is without any question.
That segments of that society are moving away from that background is equally true. It is the same too within our society.

Now the crucial point i have been repeating is that, everything ought and should be investigated thoroughly including claims of witchcraft and belief systems so people have to chance to see what is actual or what is mythological.

To dispel myths and superstitious beliefs is a good thing which i believe we can all agree on.


This phenomena which we see now is not new, I have like you or any one here on this forum undergone those experiences. May be or may be not.

But speaking for myself, I can recollect vividly that there was a time during the 70s when there was a national commotion all over the country.
We were told to leave the school and run home because a man and a woman were going around giving kids sardines to take them away to the marine world or to a mermaid.
This drama gripped the town for almost a week, every house had a nkeng plant on the windows, doors and almost everywhere to scare away this dreaded couple who were working on behalf of a mermaid...!!!!

Did anything happen..??? I can tell you no....!!!

But the trauma, the psychological effects of these things are far reaching.

Today Massock is doing the same thing and we are not questioning him to really find out where this marine kingdom is located.

In any case, I have written a lot already. I will leave this issue aside if there is something to add I shall do same later on.

Thanks for your response and understanding.

Danny Boy

Watesih,
these trances seem to bedevil our daughters only! Don't you find this intriguing?
Why only in poor African countries do we have these manifestations?
AMORC, ROSICRUCIAN or FREE MASONRY, I do not belong. All I know is that these are guilds born out of religion to foster certain ideals, which today are not helpful to a globalized village!!

Watesih

Countryfowl,
Thanks again for this debate.People have learnt a lot from it.One thing is certain,that we can not speak from both sides of our mouths when we are lurked in an intellectual debate.When you say this:"I have clearly pointed out that, there is reasonable and logical explanations to many of the phenomena which we term witchcraft".If you have come to the conclusion that there's reasonable and logical explanations to much of what witchcraft is,then your point that claims of witchcraft ought to be investigated first to swift facts from fiction cannot hold.How did you come to the conclusion that there are reasonable and logical explanations about witchcraft? Could you please show how logical these explanations are? Finally,why didn't you investigate the claims of the existence of a marine world by the Pastor before running to conclusions that he is wrong? If you did ,show how your findings are different from the other reasonable and logical explanations to many of the phenomena we term witchcraft you alluded to earlier.

Watesih

Countryfowl,
You and Danny.B want scientific facts.In the case of Tanzania,it has been proven that the mass hysteria occured as a result of scrambling to sit for an examination.How many of such scrambles have we registered with the several cases that have occured in Cameroon?If you investigated it,then this time you should be the one to help the BBC.Don`t forget to explain why in a scramble that involves both boys and girls ,only the girls go into trances.

CountryFowl

It is getting even more interesting now.
I have completely missed the postings from Radicalbrother.

-----
Watesih,

I have written & cited plenty of examples already on what you are pointing out.

There were some questions in other previous postings which if you had addressed and we had discussed them in detail, we would have cover those areas of logic and reason which you are now citing.
-------


CountryFowl

Radicalbrother,

I have gone over your postings just now.
I will like that you can clarify and elaborate on this point.

" Do you know that Jesus the Christ was a Rosicrucian? "


If there are other questions regarding your points of view I shall ask them later.

Danny Boy

Dear All,
"Science was born out of arrogance" to disprove long held belief systems that were yokes around peoples' necks! Some of the first Scientists were imprisoned for their beliefs, so to be accused today of arrogance for believing in Science is but petty in comparison.
It took a long time to convince many that our world is round, not flat; that our universe is helio-centric, not geo-centric!
Man's attempt to go to the Moon was deemed an insult to the Gods and doomed to fail!! Man has been to the Moon and back!
So much has happened to man in the past One hundred years, in evolutionary terms that we take for granted. Look carefully around you and you will see these evolutionary leaps, however small.
Mr. Tayong half-evovled species are the stuff of mythology(minotaurs, satyrs etc?)! Natural selection translates to survival of the fittest. Any half this or that will not survive the challenges of nature.
It has been a wonderful debate. My thanks to Mr.Tayong and the wonderful CountryFowl and all others of course.

The question remains,
"What do we do with people like Massock?"

Blessed be our "Brotherhood"!

UnitedstatesofAfrica

The white man has brought his religion and messed with your heads. They have fed you with fairy tales which were invented to maintain the supremacy of a specific ethnic group. You are bowing down to a religion which excludes you from its greatness. Oh! AFRICA, Oh!

Ma Mary

Watesih, let me correct a statement of fact. Charles Darwin was not an atheist. He was an Anglican priest. He was also a very moral man, who believed in the equality of human beings based on his theory of evolution. At a time when the Europeans were engaged in the slave trade he was a serious abolitionist, and believed that the differences between human beings such as skin color and the like were superficial not so different from the difference between a white chicken and a brown chicken.

The purpose of science is not to prove or to disprove God. Lets get over it. Injecting issues of God and Christian or other religious doctrines into scientific questions destroys the ability of science to answer questions and to advance knowledge.

I am quite appalled about the beliefs in the literal truth of Christian religion and scriptures exhibited here. It is the root of much war and fanaticism on our planet, these alien religions emanating from the middle east such as Christianity and Islam. Getting rid of the fear of hell and damnation which is at the core of these myths is most important step of mental and spiritual liberation that an African can take.

tayong

..."Injecting issues of God and Christian or other religious doctrines into scientific questions destroys the ability of science to answer questions and to advance knowledge...."" Ma Mary

No No No Ma Mary! The other way round. The inability or better still the limitation of science to answer some of the central tenets of its own foundational structure(theory I mean) explains the existence and handwork of some design architect, whom you may not want to call, God!

".... Getting rid of the fear of hell and damnation which is at the core of these myths is most important step of mental and spiritual liberation that an African can take....." Ma Mary

Well we just concluded some scientific discussion on this issue now you seem to inject a social dimension being the age old argument on whether religion has done more harm than good.

As africans or born africans for some people here, we can talk on our own terms. Can you articulate clearly Ma Mary how religion is a drag than a force to the liberation of Africa or the development of Africa?

Dont quote me the works of late Rev Ela et al because you will be shooting yourself on the foot badly.

Waiting....

CountryFowl

Tayong,

Did you go over Radicalbrother's assertions..? it has interesting points which I believe should be included in the debate.

I had earlier posted a brief bio on Darwin [2x] with a link to a page with plenty of information on Darwin.
This was completely ignored and not addressed. Luckily Ma Mary has come in to clear up that point.

If Darwin is misrepresented and labeled as an Atheist, how would anyone be able to look at his theories objectively...??


CountryFowl

Tayong,

Once more, I am still waiting to hear from you any points you may have on our African belief systems.
I asked specifically, because it can help us to cover a lot of ground on this issue.

CountryFowl

Tayong, Klemenceau,

Before we forget this important issue, You people are surely aware that Galileo was excommunicated from the church...???
when was this sanction lifted...?
why did the church recant it's position.
what was the effects of hiding and covering up Galileo's findings..???

Off course it was in the interest of the then church to maintain that the world was flat...!!!!!
It was also in the interest of the church to maintain that everything revolved around the earth.....!!!!
man was at the center of the universe et cetera et cetera.

Why are the churches shifting and modifying their positions daily, monthly, yearly to catch up with new scientific findings and discoveries....???

The questions are plenty, but lets us limit them to the simple issues and go from here.

Watesih

Ma Mary,
I thought Countryfowl and Danny .B needed a breather after the great debate,that's why I let sleeping dogs lie.But if we are still onto it,then I will preferably want us to describe Darwin as an Agnostic,as he himself wanted people to describe him.Darwin was a christian for the better part of his life.He even studied at Cambridge to become a clergyman,prior to his voyage to South America and Australia.After the Beagle voyage as it is called,and his discovery of evidence for evolution at the Galapagos Island,he could no longer subscribe to the teachings of Genesis,that everything was created whole and came through the ages unchanged.After having read Malthus' essay on population and came across the expression "struggle for existence",and also because of his systematic inquiry into zoology,botany,Geology,and paleontology,he wrote the "Origins of Species" which stated that things and in particular life evolved by a process he called "natural selection"
This was putting the world of life into the domain of natural law.It was no longer necessary or possible to imagine that there was some super power or conscious purpose behind the evolutionary process.An Agnostic is someone who believes that we cannot know whether God exist or not.This is not very far from saying he doesn't exist,especially if such a person start developping theories to bolster his claim.

CountryFowl

Folks,

On a lighter note here, Danny B. was asking above what we should seriously do with Massock.

I thought that if Massock was pilloried, & pelted with rotten eggs & tomatoes it will not be a bad idea...:)

Radicalbrother

All protocols duly observed,
The so called Holy Bible, its content and chritianity were tools for colonization. It is a collection of well calculated facts that can suit any circumstance. It is not as holy as you are I would want to think as it is constantly being revised to meet up with civilization. In a letter written by Leopold II to the missionaries which were sent to Africa, he did acknowledged that they( the missionaries were not coming to Africa to tell them anything about God because Africans already knew God) but to exploit them.
To me Christians are mundane as they are told to believe through faith and stop asking questions that will contradict the scriptures. The bible is too shallow to guide one when compared with other holy books of various paths of faith. Why so many versions of the bible? If Massock has read any other Holy book apart from the bible especially one mystical in nature he will learn how to keep his mouth closed
Jesus the Christ ( and not Jesus Christ)disappeared in the Bible at the age of 12 and later appeared at the age of 33 when he was crucified. Where was he? He attended mystical schools where he could acquire more mystical knowledge in order to perform his miracles. Read #Eighteen missing years of Jesus in the Bible# for more information. All the steps involved in his miracles are strictly inline with those of Moses who are the fore fathers of the Order
Why were you so particular about Jesus being a Rosicrucian. Was he your relative? Do you believe that someone who does not know you can come and die for your sins?. Some one came to save you , he was beaten and nailed on the cross. He later on died. You and I are here still waiting for him to come back. If you were the one , will you come back?. KEEP ON WAITING, YOU WILL WAIT FOR EVER
Ask your close relatives who are Fathers and Pastors of higher degree and they will tell you the truth. You will find out for yourself some of the mystical experiments they are involved in and goose pimples will cover your body

CountryFowl

Radicalbrother,

For the sake of clarity and for understanding, so we can all verify what you are stating, can you once more cite books or references or any sources of your information where people can look them up..??

Another point i will like to clear up is that this discussion is not centered around christianity or the Christ from my point of view or position.
I have not cornered or boxed the discussion into any particular one point of reference, my interest is in understanding or exploring or discussing issues to throw more light on them.

But it will be very interesting for everyone if you can clearly point out any " FACTS " that the Christ or Moses were was a rosicrucians as you have stated above in your commentaries.

tayong

CountryFowl
The differences in time zones might be causing the delay in responses. Well to begin with I wont go into explaining anything Radicalbrother said because Im not a ressicrucian and I know nothing about their practices. Jesus was not a russicrucian,period. He was Jewish whose followers and teachings are christian.

Now coming back to your points on Gallileo above I would urge you to separate religion from denomination. Im not here to defend any denominational belief system.

That said what I know is this.Isaiah 40:22 states the Earth's rotundity as thus "It is he (God) that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in"

That is a vivid statement affirming the spherical nature of the earth.


When I started reading your responses I thought you wanted to step into Ma Mary's shoes. She has brought in a discussion on religion and development. The onus in on you and her to articulate how these two are incompatible specifically to Africans.

tayong

...overlook the errors and get the message.in a rush for some other imperatives..

Bob Bristol

I must commend that this debate has been very educative and fascinating. However, I have this to chip in.
The Darwinian idea of survival of the fittest cannot only be applied to species. Ideologies and institutions are seriously facing challenges. Most learned people are gradually leaning toward a system that 1 + 1 is 2 ie (the scientific world). A system that recognises and rewards virtue directly. A system that condemns and duly punishes vice. A system that guaranties a reliance on what is SEEN or HEARD. This implies our present God must assume a new identity in order to get the esteem that obtains today.

The avowal regarding the superiority of one belief system to the other is just one of the survival strategies. It's just that we all need somebody or something to lean on.

Bob Bristol

Correction

This implies our present God must assume a new identity by the dawn the coming century in order to get the esteem that obtains today.

DAIL

Can anyone validate this?


Date: Tuesday, 17 February, 2009, 1:49 PM


Please, go through below and share

> Dear readers,
> Let me take your few minutes to safe a soul . I am
> call Vandoline Mbeng, a student at Progressive Bamenda , a
> widow and a mother of one. I fell in love with this
> journalist by name called GEORGE KELON. We dated for a
> year, and I decided to go for my HIV test. This is a
> tradition that I do after every 6 months. Before I had
> contact with this man, he showed me a fake HIV test result,
> showing that he was not infested. Behold I was shocked when
> I got my results showing that I was possitive. I called
> him to tell him the results. He told me in quotes
> "WELCOME TO MY WORLD". All he told me was that I
> was the 90th woman that he has infested, and he got all
> the names in his book and he intend to do more. That was
> not all; he also told me that he had passed it too to my
> little boy. I took this child to the hospital, only to
> know that he was possitive. I then recalled that each time
> he visited me, he wil cut his nails and cut this child's
> nails, and blood was always coming out. My life is
> finished and I don't know where to go to.
>
> Dear readers, he might pass it on to your sister,
> brother, child,uncle, aunt, and even you. The questions I
> will ask goes thus: Is he a Saddist ? Am I wrong to let
> you know this? He is from Bafangi, Ndopn-Ngoh-ketunjiah
> Divison in the Northwest Province of Cameroon, but lives in
> Carrifour Obili in Yaounde; and works for CRTV, Yaounde.
> Will he change his names to get women and infest them?
> What can the Chiefs and Fons of Northwest Province do to
> stop him from this practice? What can the Cameroon
> Government do to stop him from this practice?
>
> Please do something, or the whole population will die
> before we know it . I am a victim and a good samaritan
> to tell you this.
> Please be kind to your self and others . This will help
> you safe a soul. May God bless you all!
> Vandoline Mbeng
>


Radicalbrother


KING LEOPOLD II OF BELGIUM'S SPEECH TO BELGIAN MISSIONARIES ON THEIR "CIVILIZATION" MISSION IN THE CONGO...
Copy of a speech delivered by King Leopold II of Belgium in 1883 to belgian missionaries who were about to embark upon their "civilizing" missionary journey to the Congo (DRC).

"Revered Fathers and Dear Compatriots, the task asked of you to accomplish is very delicate and demands much tact and diplomacy. Fathers, you are going to preach the Gospel, but your preaching must be inspired by first, the interest of the Belgium government state.

The main goal of your mission in the Congo is not to teach the African (Negro) the knowledge of God, because they already know him.... Your role essentially will be to easily facilitate the task of the administrative and the industrial personnel. That is to say, you will interpret the Gospel in the way to protect and serve the interest of Belgium, in that part of the world. To do so, you will see that our savages be not interested in the riches that their soil possesses in order that they not want them. Thus they will not be involved in the murderous competition with us and dream to live a luxurious life. You will take them away from anything or act that procures them with the courage to confront us... Your actions will be essentially on the younger people that they might not rebel We must force them into submission and obedience Avoid, by all means, the Blacks becoming rich. Cause them to sing each and every day that it's "impossible for a rich man to enter into Heaven." Make them pay tithes each Sunday for church. Utilize this money that is intended for the poor, for our own business investments. Teach the Africans to forget about their heroes in ordre to worship and give praise to ours.

My Dear compatriots, if you apply to the letter all this, the interest of Belgium in the Congo will be protected for many centuries. I thank you."

Over 100 years later, not much has changed; Belgium's missionaries' "civilizing" mission has been replaced by Belgian and other European bureaucrats preaching "democratic" and "good governance" lessons and "free market" economics...The tools and methods have changed, the aim remains unchanged... The chains and whips of belgian colonialism have been
replaced by more subtle and powerful chains...

CountryFowl

Tayong,

I believe Radicalbrother has already provided us with a very potent example of some of the legacies of Christianity on our cultures, the evidences are plenty for everyone to see.

I will also encourage you to look up Adam Hochschild's book, Leopold's Ghost if you have not already done so.

I am still coming back to address some points, especially the new additions from Bob Bristol and from Radicalbrother.

Danny Boy

Dail,
if you belonged to other Cameroonian e-groups, you would have come across a rebuttal from the man accused.
It seems all the parties involved know themselves. A storm in a tea cup? Perhaps.
Maybe somebody has the time to forward the guys counter on to this forum, I would rather not.
Thanks.

CountryFowl

Danny Boy,

Without rushing to any premature conclusions, this story to me already looked suspicious, too refined, smooth and rehearsed to be taken seriously or considered as true.

First of all, the flow of the story is too fluid, subtly boxing the reader to a corner with plenty of emotional appeal calculated to arouse not only sympathy but rage against the journalist without really telling us any specific details about Vandoline Mbeng.

The writer is also actively seeking to play on the widow imagery, innocent woman, innocent child symbolism, values that are dear to our hearts and still very strong within our communities.

The story also sounds pretty familiar and seems like an altered or a doctored variant of some standard 419 scams which circulates on the internet.

How can we cross check the story with no way to verify who Vandoline Mbeng is..?

Who can corroborate the story and vouched that this Vandoline Mbeng is presently infected.

And why should we spread this story without first of all verifying it's authenticity...??


Watesih

This widow's story is outrightly biased.The first question one would ask her is what killed the father of your son and why didn't she go for the test at the outset,rather than wait for a year after?What other indices are there to show that she dated this man for a year? It is up to her to clear the air!

Ma Mary

Watesih:

I think Darwin remained a religious fellow all his life, but he was part of a trend that started in Europe from the Renaissance through the enlightenment. People began to look at the evidence and came to the conclusion that the Christian scriptures were not to be taken as literal truth but as allegory. That gave rise to sophisticated believers who worked very hard to tease out the essence of the teaching. Right now in the Catholic church, with which I am quite familiar, the majority of clergy accept evolution as scientific truth, while somehow retaining their beliefs in context.

I am deeply troubled about the rise of biblical literalists in the 21st century. These are people who are unable to handle the unknown and the uncertain, and need God to be a grand magician on their behalf to salve all their fears and hurts. It is a deeply unprincipled position if examined deeply, but I will not go into that right now. When I read Darwin, Mark Twain, Frederick Douglass, Thoreau, Emerson and other 19th century American thinkers, I am concerned about the grounding of people in the 21st century. We live in very chaotic times, hence people have greater need for these comforts.

During the European dark ages, the Islamic world used to be an advanced civilization, but at some point Europe overtook them in science and innovation and has not looked back. The reason is that European christian civilization learned to tolerate the contrasting positions of religion and science even within the same heart, whereas in many parts of the Islamic world, theocracy prevailed and suffocated free thought and inquiry. That is at the heart of the "clash of civilizations".

I know I have rubbed some the wrong way by labeling middle Eastern religions as myths and cults, but you Christians know how to dish it out but have no capacity to take it. You claim proprietary over the universal truth and claim that all other religions are false. Country Fowl mentions Dahomean/Haitian Vodou, Orisha, Buddhism, Daoism, Hindooism and other comprehensive religio-philosophical systems that have long endured the contempt and insults of the Christians. Christians, please, look in the mirror before you accuse anyone else of arrogance.

Ma Mary

Watesih:

I would agree with you that Darwin sometimes described himself as an agnostic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Darwin%27s_views_on_religion

but on the other hand, he could be described as a deeply spiritual and inquiring person. Perhaps Mother Theresa could be described as an agnostic because of her serious doubts. I am of the opinion that a truthful, inquiring Christian would eventually take an agnostic position because the required blindness of faith and belief is suspect and anathema to truth. Questions and doubt is the bedrock of truth and comfort with uncertainty is hallmark of the open mind.

Ma Mary

Tayong, Radical brother answers your question with the letter from King Leopold. I also like to quote Archbishop Desmond Tutu:

“When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said, 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land.”

But, the force of religion can be used to liberate people. To quote wikipedia, Liberation Theology is:

"...a school of theology within Christianity, particularly in the Roman Catholic Church. It emphasizes the Christian mission to bring justice to the poor and oppressed, particularly through political activism. Its theologians consider sin the root source of poverty, recognizing sin as exploitive capitalism and class war by the rich against the poor."

Note that John Paul 2 and Pope Benedict strongly opposed Liberation Theology and as an African, it leads me to going back to read King Leopold's letter and Desmond Tutu's quote. Some may recall the Solidary Movement of Poland, which was instrumental in removing oppressive Soviet Communism from Poland. The spiritual advisor of the Solidarity Movement was Cardinal Carol Woltiya of Cracow, who later became Pope JP2. Why the inconsistency? Why should religion not be a liberating force for brown skinned people?

By all means be religious, but when a Pastor Massock uses religion to promote mass superstitious hysteria, he must be confronted head on. This is not freedom. These are the chains of fear.

Watesih

Ma Mary,
There's just no way we will teach children that Darwin remained deeply religious all his life.Darwin came to fame because he challenged the contemporary wisdom that a hand in darkness was responsible for the creation of everything in the universe.He used to be a religious man and rejected the teachings in the Bible to embrace his own God-natural law.You cannot be deeply religious and tell people that species mutated from simple to complex forms through natural selection and not as a result of the presence of any God.If you have to go over your papers on Darwin again, you will find out that at the end of the "Origin of species" he starts accepted the presence of a hidden hand in natural creation.If he had accepted God all through and was all along deeply religious ,he needn`t acknowledge the presence of God the second time.This about face came partly because of the outrage and pressure from his contemporaries.If he did not go against the teachings of Genesis,why was there outrage? An inquiring christian is different from an Agnostic,because he accepts the presence of God ,but questions things that are shady in his reading of the Bible.An Agnostic on the other hand says that he doesn't know whether God exists or not.This shaky position of Darwin is therefore seen when he goes against the teachings of God,only lower his voice at the end and say God exists.Mother Theresa could not be described as agnostic for questioning the bad ways of men.He questioned the bad ways of men to make things easy for humakind as presecribed in the Bible.But if through her preachings she said she was God and that she doubted the existence of any other God,then we would describe her as an agnostic.

Watesih

Ma Mary,
There has been a deliberate attempt all along in this debate to hang on to Pastor Massock's style and leave out the crux of the matter.If he highlighted something that was not actually happening in our society,we would accuse him of witchunting.The question the pastor is asking is,how do we fight the surrendering of our children to vodoo and marine worlds? By talking about 11th february,he is still highlighting the seriousness of a problem that mostly concerns the youth.Men of God don't need to hide to confront the ills that bedevil our existence.They must use their pulpits to preach against these ills,but at times these preachings may be overly provocative.Countryfowl posted an article here from the BBC showing how trances got hold of a school milieu in Tanzania.But when we sought to know why only girls went into trances in a scramble that involved boys,no answer came.Maybe science is selective!The back and forth in this debate hovers around the point that some people would like others to believe that the marine world Pastor Massock is describing does not exist.The pretense of endangering social cohesion is flimsy.Social cohesion i already put at stake by the persistent recruitement of young people into underworld entities.What else should men of God be afraid of than condemn this openly?

tayong

Here is a story from an Atheist who visited Africa. From www.timesonline.co.uk by Mathew

As an atheist, I truly believe Africa needs God
Missionaries, not aid money, are the solution to Africa's biggest problem - the crushing passivity of the people's mindset by Matthew Parris

Before Christmas I returned, after 45 years, to the country that as a boy I knew as Nyasaland. Today it's Malawi, and The Times Christmas Appeal includes a small British charity working there. Pump Aid helps rural communities to install a simple pump, letting people keep their village wells sealed and clean. I went to see this work.

It inspired me, renewing my flagging faith in development charities. But travelling in Malawi refreshed another belief, too: one I've been trying to banish all my life, but an observation I've been unable to avoid since my African childhood. It confounds my ideological beliefs, stubbornly refuses to fit my world view, and has embarrassed my growing belief that there is no God.

Now a confirmed atheist, I've become convinced of the enormous contribution that Christian evangelism makes in Africa: sharply distinct from the work of secular NGOs, government projects and international aid efforts. These alone will not do. Education and training alone will not do. In Africa Christianity changes people's hearts. It brings a spiritual transformation. The rebirth is real. The change is good.

I used to avoid this truth by applauding - as you can - the practical work of mission churches in Africa. It's a pity, I would say, that salvation is part of the package, but Christians black and white, working in Africa, do heal the sick, do teach people to read and write; and only the severest kind of secularist could see a mission hospital or school and say the world would be better without it. I would allow that if faith was needed to motivate missionaries to help, then, fine: but what counted was the help, not the faith.

Background
British missionaries plead guilty to sedition in Gambia
Soulgasms of the Christian Right
Have Pentecostalism, will travel
PROFILE: warlord who kills in name of Christ
But this doesn't fit the facts. Faith does more than support the missionary; it is also transferred to his flock. This is the effect that matters so immensely, and which I cannot help observing.

First, then, the observation. We had friends who were missionaries, and as a child I stayed often with them; I also stayed, alone with my little brother, in a traditional rural African village. In the city we had working for us Africans who had converted and were strong believers. The Christians were always different. Far from having cowed or confined its converts, their faith appeared to have liberated and relaxed them. There was a liveliness, a curiosity, an engagement with the world - a directness in their dealings with others - that seemed to be missing in traditional African life. They stood tall.

At 24, travelling by land across the continent reinforced this impression. From Algiers to Niger, Nigeria, Cameroon and the Central African Republic, then right through the Congo to Rwanda, Tanzania and Kenya, four student friends and I drove our old Land Rover to Nairobi.

We slept under the stars, so it was important as we reached the more populated and lawless parts of the sub-Sahara that every day we find somewhere safe by nightfall. Often near a mission.

Whenever we entered a territory worked by missionaries, we had to acknowledge that something changed in the faces of the people we passed and spoke to: something in their eyes, the way they approached you direct, man-to-man, without looking down or away. They had not become more deferential towards strangers - in some ways less so - but more open.

This time in Malawi it was the same. I met no missionaries. You do not encounter missionaries in the lobbies of expensive hotels discussing development strategy documents, as you do with the big NGOs. But instead I noticed that a handful of the most impressive African members of the Pump Aid team (largely from Zimbabwe) were, privately, strong Christians. “Privately” because the charity is entirely secular and I never heard any of its team so much as mention religion while working in the villages. But I picked up the Christian references in our conversations. One, I saw, was studying a devotional textbook in the car. One, on Sunday, went off to church at dawn for a two-hour service.

It would suit me to believe that their honesty, diligence and optimism in their work was unconnected with personal faith. Their work was secular, but surely affected by what they were. What they were was, in turn, influenced by a conception of man's place in the Universe that Christianity had taught.

There's long been a fashion among Western academic sociologists for placing tribal value systems within a ring fence, beyond critiques founded in our own culture: “theirs” and therefore best for “them”; authentic and of intrinsically equal worth to ours.

I don't follow this. I observe that tribal belief is no more peaceable than ours; and that it suppresses individuality. People think collectively; first in terms of the community, extended family and tribe. This rural-traditional mindset feeds into the “big man” and gangster politics of the African city: the exaggerated respect for a swaggering leader, and the (literal) inability to understand the whole idea of loyal opposition.

Anxiety - fear of evil spirits, of ancestors, of nature and the wild, of a tribal hierarchy, of quite everyday things - strikes deep into the whole structure of rural African thought. Every man has his place and, call it fear or respect, a great weight grinds down the individual spirit, stunting curiosity. People won't take the initiative, won't take things into their own hands or on their own shoulders.

How can I, as someone with a foot in both camps, explain? When the philosophical tourist moves from one world view to another he finds - at the very moment of passing into the new - that he loses the language to describe the landscape to the old. But let me try an example: the answer given by Sir Edmund Hillary to the question: Why climb the mountain? “Because it's there,” he said.

To the rural African mind, this is an explanation of why one would not climb the mountain. It's... well, there. Just there. Why interfere? Nothing to be done about it, or with it. Hillary's further explanation - that nobody else had climbed it - would stand as a second reason for passivity.

Christianity, post-Reformation and post-Luther, with its teaching of a direct, personal, two-way link between the individual and God, unmediated by the collective, and unsubordinate to any other human being, smashes straight through the philosphical/spiritual framework I've just described. It offers something to hold on to to those anxious to cast off a crushing tribal groupthink. That is why and how it liberates.

Those who want Africa to walk tall amid 21st-century global competition must not kid themselves that providing the material means or even the knowhow that accompanies what we call development will make the change. A whole belief system must first be supplanted.

And I'm afraid it has to be supplanted by another. Removing Christian evangelism from the African equation may leave the continent at the mercy of a malign fusion of Nike, the witch doctor, the mobile phone and the machete

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